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Post by Martin on Mar 10, 2015 12:28:52 GMT
I'm starting this thread for slightly selfish reasons but also to see if we can pool our data/knowledge and come up with some useful conclusions. I've just taken delivery of an original New Jazz purple label pressing of Roy Haynes' Cracklin' (NJ8286). When I was researching ahead of this purchase, I noticed that there are quite a few variations within that description "original New Jazz purple label" including: DG on one side, DG on both sides, no DG; different typography for the LP title; variants of how "high fidelity" is spelt and printed; variants of how the catalogue number is printed on the label and subtle variations in the shade of purple. Now, given that this LP was one of the last New Jazz sessions (recorded on 6 April 1963) and, as far as I can work out, Prestige stopped using the New Jazz imprint in 1964, there seems to have been little time available for second, third etc pressings. So the question is what *does* constitute a first pressing for this record? Maybe several pressing plants did pressings simultaneously and they all qualify as first pressings? If that was standard practice for this label, it might account for why some copies suffer from recycled vinyl hiss and some don't. I compared the labels and deadwax on my copy with LJC's here: londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/roy-haynes-cracklin-1963-new-jazz/And while the labels have differences, the Van Gelder stamp and matrix number look the same and are positioned the same, suggesting that the same metalwork was used for both. Later on I'll add some photos of my copy. I'd be interested in comparisons with anybody elses' copies too. And perhaps we can widen this out to other New Jazz records and attempt to build up some sort of knowledge base?
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Post by Martin on Mar 10, 2015 22:38:47 GMT
So here are photos of the labels on my copy. Comparisons with LJC's copy are: 1). Mine is non-DG on both sides, LJC's is DG on side 1. 2). Mine has wording "HIGH FIDELITY", LJC's has wording " HI FIDELITY". 3). LJC's has Side 1/Side 2 written above the catalogue number, mine doesn't. 4). Roy Haynes name is in a different typeface on mine. Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedThoughts? Other variants?
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Post by proteus on Jun 27, 2015 12:57:38 GMT
So here are photos of the labels on my copy. Comparisons with LJC's copy are: 1). Mine is non-DG on both sides, LJC's is DG on side 1. 2). Mine has wording "HIGH FIDELITY", LJC's has wording " HI FIDELITY". 3). LJC's has Side 1/Side 2 written above the catalogue number, mine doesn't. 4). Roy Haynes name is in a different typeface on mine. Thoughts? Other variants? Hi Martin, I've stumbled across this site a couple of times before and just seen the forum so joined up. I'm Frank, as in my name, I don't mean I'm forthright... anyway enough intro. This is mine:
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Post by dottorjazz on Jun 27, 2015 16:42:21 GMT
let me laugh, please! some time ago I invited LJC to begin a study on New Jazz, which looked simpler than the massive work under construction on Prestige. but now, with this number alone, I found these different features: Martin's: no dg, High Fidelity, no side 1/side 2 over cat #, Roy Haynes in "short" font Proteus': no dg, Hi Fidelity, side 1/side 2 over cat #, Roy Haynes in "long" font. LJC's: dg side one only, Hi Fidelity, side 1/side 2 over cat #, font: same as Proteus' dg side one only, no side 1/side 2 over cat #, High Fidelity, font: same as Martin's. unable to find a double dg, but may exist. so we have at least 4 different variations for 8286 alone. . which is the first? Attachment Deleted
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Post by Martin on Jun 28, 2015 6:15:06 GMT
Just so, dottorjazz! At the time of my original posting I looked at photos of labels on Popsike and there are a large number of variations on the purple label theme for just this one record. At present, given the 1963 recording date for this session and Prestige stopped using the New Jazz imprint in 1964 (as far as I know), my working hypothesis is that multiple pressing plants were used at the same time leading to all these variations. The conclusion from that is that any or all of these versions could be first pressings.
Never mind, it's a wonderful record and we all enjoy our own pressings whatever the purple labels are like!
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Post by gst on Jul 8, 2015 20:16:13 GMT
I've mentioned this elsewhere before but I read (perhaps on jazzcollector.com?) that some DG are wider than others? Perhaps another variant?
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mcsvt
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mcsvt on Aug 23, 2016 15:34:30 GMT
I recently picked up a beautiful copy of Jimmy Forrest's Forrest Fire on New Jazz. Brought it home, gave it a thorough cleaning on my VPI and gave it a spin. As soon as the needle drops.....the dreaded New Jazz "hiss". Now it is still a great session and good listen, nary a pop or click, but man that hiss is so annoying. I have maybe 6 or so New Jazz releases and I think 3 out of the 6 have this problem. This one the hiss isn't as prominent "loud" as some of the others but is there no doubt. So I have read the write up here on LJC on New Jazz and it seems they used recycled vinyl quite a bit and this seems to be the cause of the dreaded hiss, and that you can usually tell if it will have this flaw by looking at the run-out (good information to know going forward if I come across any more titles). There are some really great records on the New Jazz label, what a shame that a great deal of them have this awful hiss.....ok rant over.
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Post by gst on Aug 25, 2016 13:30:30 GMT
I recently picked up a beautiful copy of Jimmy Forrest's Forrest Fire on New Jazz. Brought it home, gave it a thorough cleaning on my VPI and gave it a spin. As soon as the needle drops.....the dreaded New Jazz "hiss". Now it is still a great session and good listen, nary a pop or click, but man that hiss is so annoying. I have maybe 6 or so New Jazz releases and I think 3 out of the 6 have this problem. This one the hiss isn't as prominent "loud" as some of the others but is there no doubt. So I have read the write up here on LJC on New Jazz and it seems they used recycled vinyl quite a bit and this seems to be the cause of the dreaded hiss, and that you can usually tell if it will have this flaw by looking at the run-out (good information to know going forward if I come across any more titles). There are some really great records on the New Jazz label, what a shame that a great deal of them have this awful hiss.....ok rant over. Love New Jazz. I'm not sure if I've just gotten lucky or I'm not as bothered by the hiss, but I don't have an original that's too distracting (perhaps the cartridge would make a difference?). I'm much more bothered by random pops and clicks than consistent noise anyway. Interesting about the run-out. I'll have to check mine when I get some time....someday.
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mcsvt
New Member
Posts: 11
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Post by mcsvt on Aug 25, 2016 13:51:26 GMT
Here is the excerpt from LJC concerning recycled vinyl and the run-out area; "Recycled vinyl can be detected visually by careful inspection of the run-out groove area. With regular vinyl, this area is a smooth and shiny reflective surface. If recycled vinyl is present, this area will have a slightly milky quality, though apparently smooth, thousands of very tiny specks will break up the otherwise reflective nature of the surface."
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 25, 2016 17:34:28 GMT
i have noticed that my new jazz recordings also seem to be the worst offenders as far as groove wear goes.
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jcband
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by jcband on Aug 25, 2016 21:59:19 GMT
Actually I have had far worse luck with Jazzland pressings for hiss.
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Aug 26, 2016 1:09:50 GMT
Recycled vinyl was used in Prestige as well as New Jazz releases. I think I recall someone saying they first started doing it in 1960.
My copy of Steamin' (pressed in 1961?) has this hiss, though thankfully it is minimal (I believe it is quite prominent in some copies). The worst I've heard are Mal Waldron's 'The Quest' and (worse again) Walt Dickerson's 'To My Queen'. On The Quest - mostly a loud, dynamic date - the music sails comfortably above it, but it is noticeable on the beautiful 'Warm Canto'. To My Queen, on the other hand, is a quiet affair, and the hiss is very noticeable. Avoid if this is the type of thing that bothers you.
Just for your information, a lot of 1960-onwards Prestige and New Jazz releases were also given "original", contemporaneous issues in Japan. These are (it seems to me) little known, and are pressed on heavy vinyl with deep groove labels. No RVG stamp, crucially, but they are still superb, and a fair cut above the later Japan reissues - an excellent alternative to hissy US originals of quiet recordings. I have the Japan original of The Quest and To My Queen, and while I prefer the US original of The Quest (switching over only for Warm Canto), I sold my copy of To My Queen, as the Japan issue sounded way better.
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Post by Martin on Aug 26, 2016 19:22:08 GMT
My only New Jazz pressing (Roy Haynes' Cracklin') doesn't have any hiss but I was careful during the purchase to ascertain that in advance because they do have a reputation for it. Interesting that your copy of Steamin' has hiss. Mine doesn't. More info on my blog here: intosomethin.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/miles-davis-steamin-with-the-miles-davis-quintet-prestige-prlp-7200/Is yours a Bergenfield yellow and black fireworks label? Generally these are thought to be at less risk of the recycled vinyl hiss than the later blue trident label pressings. Having said that, none of my Prestige blue trident label pressings suffer from hiss. Perhaps I've just been lucky.
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 27, 2016 14:17:08 GMT
here's a question i can't believe i don't already know the answer to: at what catalog number does prestige officially switch to the trident label?
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Aug 30, 2016 1:42:19 GMT
Really enjoyed that blog post, Martin. I just read your comment on LJC's Bobby Hutcherson tribute post and look forward to your thoughts on Stick-Up.
My copy of Steamin' is the same as yours. I don't have a scales to confirm its exact weight but my sense is that it's the same.
I also have a handful of blue trident label pressings (all reissues) and none suffers from hiss.
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