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Post by dottorjazz on Feb 10, 2015 10:33:10 GMT
every serious collector or seller should know the market well but everyday we see records declared "insanely rare". most times they aren't. requested prices are insanely high instead. one example: BN 1568 is considered (and priced) at the top of the market: how many have we seen in less than three years? I've counted 'em: 22, from Feb 2012 to Jan 2015. not bad for a record supposed to be printed in 5-600 copies only. here I would encourage collectors to show gems that have seldom or never been seen. to start I've chosen an extended play from Argentina. It's a private recording from 1960, the first record featuring a young tenor who later would hit the world with great music. Agrupación nuevo jazz (new jazz group) on a'nj P. 17-003. it's a group of 9 Argentinian: among them Gato Barbieri, at the time with his real name Leandro. he's the author of one of the three tracks. I've only seen this record in the Japanese Disk Union want list.
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Post by dottorjazz on Feb 10, 2015 10:37:55 GMT
the title of the extended play is: MENORAMA and here is side two.
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Post by Spencer on Feb 10, 2015 15:37:05 GMT
Have never heard of nor even seen a glimpse of this. Who's is this young tenor you refer to?
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Post by gregorythefish on Feb 10, 2015 16:03:42 GMT
dottor, don't you think the rarity of 1568 contributes to it coming to market as often as it does?
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Post by dottorjazz on Feb 10, 2015 18:04:40 GMT
Have never heard of nor even seen a glimpse of this. Who's is this young tenor you refer to? I wrote his name Spencer, Gato Barbieri, real name Leandro Barbieri. into Free Jazz first, with Don Cherry for example, then he started a series of Latino-America recordings for Flying Dutchman and Impulse. also wrote the score for Last Tango in Paris.
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Post by dottorjazz on Feb 10, 2015 18:23:49 GMT
dottor, don't you think the rarity of 1568 contributes to it coming to market as often as it does? absolutely no: rare, IMO, means a record that's NOT easy to see, no matter his price. market sets the price, anyone is free to pay some thousands bucks for a given record. 1568 is very expensive but it's not so rare. serious market should pay big money for real rarity but it ain't so. it's a sort of illusion and involves most Blue Notes. if they were so rare why most 1500 and 4000 do not reach same prices? it's known that pressing quantities were very similar, so the rarity should be almost the same. I think it's only a trend, real value will drop down, I hope... another matter is the musical value which I can't discuss. many have stated that 1568 is far from the best Mobley's work but no other of his records reaches such evaluation. in the decades I've seen records prices go up and down, musicians being researched then left over. now's the time of Mobley, Clark, Hipp (!!), and few others. I'm quite sure that, before or after, any record will be in many serious collections at reasonable prices, reasonable, not cheap, except for a fluke. the chase is on.
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Post by Spencer on Feb 10, 2015 23:01:01 GMT
dottor, don't you think the rarity of 1568 contributes to it coming to market as often as it does? absolutely no: rare, IMO, means a record that's NOT easy to see, no matter his price. market sets the price, anyone is free to pay some thousands bucks for a given record. 1568 is very expensive but it's not so rare. serious market should pay big money for real rarity but it ain't so. it's a sort of illusion and involves most Blue Notes. if they were so rare why most 1500 and 4000 do not reach same prices? it's known that pressing quantities were very similar, so the rarity should be almost the same. I think it's only a trend, real value will drop down, I hope... another matter is the musical value which I can't discuss. many have stated that 1568 is far from the best Mobley's work but no other of his records reaches such evaluation. in the decades I've seen records prices go up and down, musicians being researched then left over. now's the time of Mobley, Clark, Hipp (!!), and few others. I'm quite sure that, before or after, any record will be in many serious collections at reasonable prices, reasonable, not cheap, except for a fluke. the chase is on. I share your wish to see these BN record prices settle down to reasonable range but I fear this is not likely anytime soon if it's even possible. I've been told numerous times that the reasons these records are exorbitant is because of deep pocketed collector from Hong Kong and Japan who are willing to acquire some titles at any cost. With China now awash with cash I fear this 'trend' is going to continue rather slow down
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Post by Spencer on Feb 10, 2015 23:13:33 GMT
As of last year I've collected all 112 45rpms from music matters. I once sat down and did a rough estimate of what it would cost to acquire all 112 records as originals and I came to the conlusion that it will cost roughly $0.25 million to do so. In world where people's annual income fall way short of this number, it is a hefty sum to drop on just 112 records
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Post by gregorythefish on Feb 11, 2015 18:02:00 GMT
i know very little of economics, and i certainly don't claim that mobley is a favorite of mine, but i do LOVE 1568... or rather my DIGITAL FILES (gasp) of 1568. haha.
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Post by alunsevern on Feb 14, 2015 11:03:01 GMT
I think Dott is right to draw a distinction between rarity and collectibility. There are records -- such as some of the highly prized Blue Notes -- whose price is determined more by collectibility than rarity per se. As Dott says, you see them; they come on the market quite frequently; amongst collectors they are hugely desirable -- hence the prices they command. On the other hand the are extremely rare records that for whatever reasons far fewer people want. Numerically they may be much rarer than the able Notes but because demand is lower (and they are less popular records) they do not command such a high price. They are -- at least for most -- less collectible.
I'm not sure the price of Blue Notes will, as some here wish, settle or fall, because Blue Notes have to all intents and purposes become a recognised 'asset class': investors are driving the market price for these records.
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Post by Spencer on Feb 14, 2015 16:39:33 GMT
I think Dott is right to draw a distinction between rarity and collectibility. There are records -- such as some of the highly prized Blue Notes -- whose price is determined more by collectibility than rarity per se. As Dott says, you see them; they come on the market quite frequently; amongst collectors they are hugely desirable -- hence the prices they command. On the other hand the are extremely rare records that for whatever reasons far fewer people want. Numerically they may be much rarer than the able Notes but because demand is lower (and they are less popular records) they do not command such a high price. They are -- at least for most -- less collectible. I'm not sure the price of Blue Notes will, as some here wish, settle or fall, because Blue Notes have to all intents and purposes become a recognised 'asset class': investors are driving the market price for these records. Agreed, but wold like to point out that those hard to find BN titles that are usually popping up in the market are usually sold by a small pool of sellers. Sometimes, some buy at an auction and turn around flip it for profit.
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Post by mrfancy on Feb 18, 2015 19:03:41 GMT
This is a version of BN 1521 from Taichung, Taiwan published in 1968. They made no effort to pass it off as an actual Blue Note (Blue Note only appears in the liner notes on the back cover) so I do not think it was made as a knock-off, or counterfeit. The cover is pathetically floppy, thin, and covered in loose laminated plastic inside and out. The most surprising thing to me: the dead wax has exactly, and I mean exactly, the same style RVG and BLNP-1521-A, BNLP-1521-B, and 9M as my first pressing of BNLP-1522, but without the P. There are also some additional lightly hand-etched info of the local publisher. Despite the promise of stereo on the cover and labels, the recording is mono. And while the vinyl is nearly as floppy as the cover, the fidelity is superb--identical to my first of BN 1522. There were US military bases in Taiwan then, and I suspect that they were the folks this was marketed to. Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by Spencer on Feb 19, 2015 1:23:51 GMT
This is a version of BN 1521 from Taichung, Taiwan published in 1968. They made no effort to pass it off as an actual Blue Note (Blue Note only appears in the blurb on the back cover) so I do not think it was made as a knock-off, or counterfeit. The cover is pathetically floppy, thin, and covered in loose laminated plastic inside and out. The most surprising thing to me: the dead wax has exactly, and I mean exactly, the same style RVG and BLNP-1521-A, BNLP-1521-B, and 9M as my first pressing of BNLP-1522, but without the P. There are also some additional lightly hand-etched info of the local publisher. Despite the promise of stereo on the cover and labels, the recording is mono. And while the vinyl is nearly as floppy as the cover, the fidelity is superb--identical to my first of BN 1522. There were US military bases in Taiwan then, and I suspect that they were the folks this was marketed to. Very interesting piece
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Post by alunsevern on Jul 7, 2015 11:20:29 GMT
A belated addition to the discussion about the Taiwanese Art Blakey. Info online (not that there's much) suggests that these pressings from CSJ (Chung Sheng Records) and others were essentially pirated for the Taiwanese market, and especially for US soldiers. They were cheap versions. Someone posting on a forum that discusses these (I've lost the URL and can't work out how to navigate back to it on this borrowed iPad) says that in the very late 60s and early 70s when he was a child in tAiwan it was possible to buy single LPs on CSJ and similar labels for around USD0.60 cents... A fascinating bit of history....
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Post by dottorjazz on Aug 13, 2015 7:02:51 GMT
I'm spending my holiday in Tuscany as usually: we're having a very hot summer in Italy this year. 55 years ago Chet Baker came here to play and left a bunch of recordings that are seldom seen on the market today. I'm very fond of them 'cause I like Chet a lot. let's start with two 45's on Italian RCA, both with art cover. there's no trace of them in the otherwise careful Jazzdisco.org: strange 'cause our Japanese friends are usually precisely as death. I'll detail both. recorded in Rome, spring 1962 with arrangements by Ennio Morricone, these were the first tracks recorded after Chet was released from prison, after having been sentenced to a year, seven months and ten days for drug problems. backed by orchestra conducted by Morricone. the record was released in June 1962. PM45 3068: Chetty's Lullaby c/w So che ti perderò (I know I'll lose you) What's unusual is that Chet sings in Italian and that these tracks were composed while incarcerated in Lucca. Alessandro Maffei is the author of Italian lyrics.
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