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Post by Spencer on Mar 1, 2016 23:51:38 GMT
You are taking it too personal, my friend. I never intended to step on anyone's toe. These are my opinions, not MM's, not LJC's and not AP's. These are my opinion nothing more, nothing less!
I thought this forum is a place where folks are allowed to voice their opinions without name calling or fear? If you disagree with my opinion I champion your right to do so.
I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEONE STARTS A STATEMENT BY IMPLYING THAT THEY ARE ABOVE IT ALL AND THEN PROCEEDS TO SHOW IN THAT SAME STATEMENT THAT THEY ARE NOT ABOVE IT ALL.
Just so you know condescension was not on my minD when I originally penned this topic for discussion. Just satire! But I can see how anyone who feels they are the focus of satire can feel they're being condescended to.
It is curious how certain human traits show up no matter where you go. During my sociology studies I learned of how communities of people no matter where you go always erect an enforcement mechanism to force everyone into groupthink: with the police it is called the "blue wall", with the Mafia it is called "Omertà" with the online vinyl community it is good old fashioned name calling when some expresses a heretical idea.
You made all sorts of accusations against me in your post which if I replied in kind you would not be the gentlemanly way to go.
YOU CHAMPION YOUR WHITE LABEL ORIGINAL PROMOS AND I CHAMPION REISSUE LABELS LIKE MM & AP. BOTH OF US SPEND MONEY EVERY MONTH ON OUR PREFERENCES. I DON'T ASSUME BECAUSE YOU PREFER THE ORIGINALS THAT YOU ARE DOING MARKETING FOR THE ORIGINAL LABELS.
IF YOUR IDEA OF A MARKETING JOKE IS ME SPENDING HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS OF MY OWN MONEY ON REISSUES FROM MM & AP AND THEN PRAISING THOSE REISSUES THEN I MISSED PUNCHLINE. CEASE AND DESIST!
WE ARE ALL FANS HERE! SOME ARE MORE FANATICAL THAN OTHERS
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Evan
Junior Member
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Post by Evan on Mar 2, 2016 5:58:14 GMT
I'm not taking sides here, but...
Spencer, have you ever wondered why it is you always get into ugly arguments with people? Do you think that might have something to do with your personality, rather than "certain human traits"?
Greg is just about the most pleasant person I have interacted with online, here or anywhere else. I've had a pleasant exchange with you, too, but why is it that the only mode I seem to find you in, here and on LJC's main site, is aggressive (bordering on abusive at times) defence/promotion of MM, and mockery of those who have the temerity to express a preference for vintage pressings?
Right, maybe I am taking sides. Just calling it as I see it.
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 2, 2016 14:56:57 GMT
spencer, we are all friends here.
you see, i don't champion anything. that would imply that i think of my method as superior and look down on others who do not share that view. that type of thing would be grossly unpleasant for others. i speak from recent experience.
i simply enjoy certain things. and i have no idea what you are talking about with regards to sociology and such. does not seem related.
also, i am above very little. we are all victims of human nature. but capital letters, even? i am too lazy to hit the enter or caps lock button in an informal setting.
marketing for original labels? well, that would be silly since they don't exist any more. and you doing marketing for MM? no, no, you would be fired in an instant! too pushy. just saying they work hard. methinks you read too far into things.
but that's ok. passion makes for good fandom, doesn't it?
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Post by SPENCER on Mar 2, 2016 15:04:45 GMT
I'm not taking sides here, but... Spencer, have you ever wondered why it is you always get into ugly arguments with people? Do you think that might have something to do with your personality, rather than "certain human traits"? Greg is just about the most pleasant person I have interacted with online, here or anywhere else. I've had a pleasant exchange with you, too, but why is it that the only mode I seem to find you in, here and on LJC's main site, is aggressive (bordering on abusive at times) defence/promotion of MM, and mockery of those who have the temerity to express a preference for vintage pressings? Right, maybe I am taking sides. Just calling it as I see it. I am not trying to offend anyone...and I appreciate your input Have you ever wondered why you never hear me question why anyone has this or that opinion? Because we are all entitled to our opinions. I don't always agree with every opinion I read but far be it for me to accost anyone because I dislike their opinion. If I felt differently about an opinion from another LJC reader I will offer an alternative without calling the other person names or accusing he or she of charges I cannot prove. Being that I'm kind of an odd man out at a place where everyone shares the common opinion that originals are sacrosanct it isn't unusual that someone will take issue with my posts which lavish praises on reissues. I think the pattern I notice here is this never ending habit of some folks reading meanings into my posts. mea culpa to sometimes being provocative, but I never intend any mean spiritedness in my posts. take my recent post on the impending collapse of outrageous original prices. The point I was trying to get across is that the present time is as good as any to buy originals due to the fact that prices are holding firm and in some cases dropping lower. I must say it troubles me to see that anyone took offense to what was meant as a good news delivered in a satirical tone. HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY YOU CANNOT SHOW ME ONE INSTANCE OF ME ATTACKING ANYONE FIRST? BECAUSE IT IS NOT MY JOB TO POLICE THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS WHEN I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT. |
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 2, 2016 15:12:50 GMT
except no one has issues with your love of quality reissues, spencer!
i often lament myself that while i love my collection, the MM covers look so nice, and I would love to have them, even for display!
i don't really think anyone has attacked anyone.
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Post by Spencer on Mar 2, 2016 16:36:44 GMT
except no one has issues with your love of quality reissues, spencer! i often lament myself that while i love my collection, the MM covers look so nice, and I would love to have them, even for display! i don't really think anyone has attacked anyone. I apologize if I offended you. I do not nor ever wanted to cast aspersions on your love for original vinyls. I never sit down to pen a post and think how can I offend this or that many people. I leave that task to Donald Trump (forgive my humor) I know my tone can can be acerbic but believe me it is always intended with irony, never condescension Also I do not hate originals, more like I cannot afford them |
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Post by gst on Mar 2, 2016 17:50:34 GMT
Spencer you're not the only one that likes MM. As I've mentioned on this tread I have every 45 and half a dozen of the 33s.
Also do you ever read jazzcollector.com? Folks over there might disagree about vintage jazz titles dropping.
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 2, 2016 20:44:09 GMT
well, then, we are all friends. hooray. i actually bought one high-quality audiophile record in my time: a reissue of archie shepp's "blase'". i had the chance to buy an original recently but was in a hurry and had to pass. i do love that album, and that pressing is very nice. but man, fuck donald trump.  |
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Post by Spencer on Mar 2, 2016 20:46:41 GMT
well, then, we are all friends. hooray. i actually bought one high-quality audiophile record in my time: a reissue of archie shepp's "blase'". i had the chance to buy an original recently but was in a hurry and had to pass. i do love that album, and that pressing is very nice. but man, fuck donald trump. Donald The Drumpf! |
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Mar 3, 2016 1:26:25 GMT
I am not trying to offend anyone...and I appreciate your input Have you ever wondered why you never hear me question why anyone has this or that opinion? Because we are all entitled to our opinions. I don't always agree with every opinion I read but far be it for me to accost anyone because I dislike their opinion. If I felt differently about an opinion from another LJC reader I will offer an alternative without calling the other person names or accusing he or she of charges I cannot prove. Being that I'm kind of an odd man out at a place where everyone shares the common opinion that originals are sacrosanct it isn't unusual that someone will take issue with my posts which lavish praises on reissues. I think the pattern I notice here is this never ending habit of some folks reading meanings into my posts. mea culpa to sometimes being provocative, but I never intend any mean spiritedness in my posts. take my recent post on the impending collapse of outrageous original prices. The point I was trying to get across is that the present time is as good as any to buy originals due to the fact that prices are holding firm and in some cases dropping lower. I must say it troubles me to see that anyone took offense to what was meant as a good news delivered in a satirical tone. HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY YOU CANNOT SHOW ME ONE INSTANCE OF ME ATTACKING ANYONE FIRST? BECAUSE IT IS NOT MY JOB TO POLICE THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS WHEN I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT. Nobody has accused you of saying people aren't entitled to their opinions. I just think you tend to be aggressive and condescending when you talk about people spending money on vintage pressings when they could be buying Music Matters reissues. I am not the least bit offended by anything you have said; I just find your manner and tone – again, when discussing Music Matters – jarring compared to the way everybody else treats each other on LJC's blog and forum. Incidentally, I agree with you on MMs vs. originals. I prefer how originals sound, yes, but to an extent that I would pay ten/twenty/fifty times the price? Heavens no. An NM original mono of Speak No Evil popped up on Discogs this week for the first time in two years. It was priced 500 euro with the option to make an offer. I considered an offer of way more than I have ever paid for a record, trying to convince myself it'd just be a once-every-few-years kind of purchase, but it was snapped up before I acted on it. I was mildly disappointed, but that wasn’t long dissipating when I listened to my MM33 copy that evening. It is truly thunderous. I also agree with you that Music Matters’ work is “game changing” (forgive me if it wasn't you who said that). Knowing that a great number of titles will never, ever cost less than ten/twenty/fifty times the price of an MM reissue, I am more than happy to give up on them. I don't even see it as “settling” for an MM, because I find them outstanding. But I won't disparage the person who did buy that copy of Speak No Evil (Dott, was it you? Frederick?). If the lucky new owner thought it was worth that money, then it was. There is no other metric by which its value can be measured. Anyway, rambling. Peace, Spencer. |
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Post by SPENCER on Mar 3, 2016 22:00:58 GMT
I am not trying to offend anyone...and I appreciate your input Have you ever wondered why you never hear me question why anyone has this or that opinion? Because we are all entitled to our opinions. I don't always agree with every opinion I read but far be it for me to accost anyone because I dislike their opinion. If I felt differently about an opinion from another LJC reader I will offer an alternative without calling the other person names or accusing he or she of charges I cannot prove. Being that I'm kind of an odd man out at a place where everyone shares the common opinion that originals are sacrosanct it isn't unusual that someone will take issue with my posts which lavish praises on reissues. I think the pattern I notice here is this never ending habit of some folks reading meanings into my posts. mea culpa to sometimes being provocative, but I never intend any mean spiritedness in my posts. take my recent post on the impending collapse of outrageous original prices. The point I was trying to get across is that the present time is as good as any to buy originals due to the fact that prices are holding firm and in some cases dropping lower. I must say it troubles me to see that anyone took offense to what was meant as a good news delivered in a satirical tone. HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY YOU CANNOT SHOW ME ONE INSTANCE OF ME ATTACKING ANYONE FIRST? BECAUSE IT IS NOT MY JOB TO POLICE THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS WHEN I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT. Nobody has accused you of saying people aren't entitled to their opinions. I just think you tend to be aggressive and condescending when you talk about people spending money on vintage pressings when they could be buying Music Matters reissues. I am not the least bit offended by anything you have said; I just find your manner and tone – again, when discussing Music Matters – jarring compared to the way everybody else treats each other on LJC's blog and forum. Incidentally, I agree with you on MMs vs. originals. I prefer how originals sound, yes, but to an extent that I would pay ten/twenty/fifty times the price? Heavens no. An NM original mono of Speak No Evil popped up on Discogs this week for the first time in two years. It was priced 500 euro with the option to make an offer. I considered an offer of way more than I have ever paid for a record, trying to convince myself it'd just be a once-every-few-years kind of purchase, but it was snapped up before I acted on it. I was mildly disappointed, but that wasn’t long dissipating when I listened to my MM33 copy that evening. It is truly thunderous. I also agree with you that Music Matters’ work is “game changing” (forgive me if it wasn't you who said that). Knowing that a great number of titles will never, ever cost less than ten/twenty/fifty times the price of an MM reissue, I am more than happy to give up on them. I don't even see it as “settling” for an MM, because I find them outstanding. But I won't disparage the person who did buy that copy of Speak No Evil (Dott, was it you? Frederick?). If the lucky new owner thought it was worth that money, then it was. There is no other metric by which its value can be measured. Anyway, rambling. Peace, Spencer. MY TONE IS NOT INTENDED TO DISPARAGE. I MERELY TRY TO INJECT DRY HUMOR INTO MY POSTS. I CAN SEE THAT MY ATTEMPTS AT HUMOR ARE FAILING.... |
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 4, 2016 1:39:56 GMT
I ACTUALLY FOUND THAT LAST ONE TO BE PRETTY FUNNY
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Post by Spencer on Mar 5, 2016 11:42:13 GMT
I ACTUALLY FOUND THAT LAST ONE TO BE PRETTY FUNNY don't worry, I won't surrender my day job and take up stand-up full time. |
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Post by Spencer on May 4, 2016 19:17:28 GMT
HOW DEEP IS YOUR BLUE? Tsong Theme For Doris is my personal favorite
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Post by Rich on May 4, 2016 22:27:22 GMT
What I'm about to say would upsetting for regular LJC readers but it shouldn't except if you are one of those individuals who buy rare original jazz albums as an investment instead of entertainment. If you are a record investor then by all means go ahead and be mad cause my powers of observation indicates that you and your precious collection of Jazz lP is about to undergo a Dutch style Tulip bubble meltdown.IT IS MY THESIS THAT THE PROLIFERATION OF QUALITY ANALOG REISSUES OF CLASSIC BLUE NOTE AND OTHER JAZZ LABEL CATALOGS IS NOW MAKING A DENT ON THE ORIGINAL/VINTAGE LP MARKET. AS A FREQUENT WATCHER OF EBAY SALES (LIKE MOST OF YOU) I HAVE NOW BEGAN TO NOTICE A SMALL DOWNWARD TREND IN THE AUCTION PRICES OF EXTREMELY GOOD QUALITY COPIES OF BLUE NOTE AND PRESTIGE TITLES.I did not want to believe it but the signs are everywhere. The recent trend that I've seen is that more rare rock 'n roll ups have now begun to fetch the kind of money that only Jazz lis use to command. Good reason for this trend as well as most of you know the tapes of most rock 'n roll records are worse shape than their jazz counterparts. two reasons: rock 'n roll records were reissued more frequently than jazz. Next is the quality of the tapes themselves, EPA environmental and consumer standards regulations enacted in the 70s basically eliminated the use of some harmful compounds from the manufacture of magnetic audio tapes; most specifically lead. (Don't get me started on the topic of sperm whale oil). Now a manufacturer can still use the old formula if he or she choses to, but the risk is ernomous, first they would have to market it specifically as potentially dangerous, meaning there would be all kinds warning symbols plastered all over the packaging and handling the item would require Chernobyl and Fukushima level protective gear. Then there is the potential lawsuit down the road from folks who will be affected one way or the othe--but I'm digressing here.
www.ebay.com/itm/LED-ZEPPELIN-Self-Titled-ATLANTIC-SD-8216-LP-NM-wlp-/361487115730?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150604093004%26meid%3D6d47c0a47a26474a976067e5a685b19a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D381542199581&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=6pEBvr05EY7%252BVL1RjosJhegM7OM%253D&orig_cvip=true
the auction on the page link above is in the top tier of the kind of trend I'm talking about with rock albums but it somewhat indicative of the point I'm making. I would speculate that the tapes for Zeppelin's 70s albums are in a fragile state and if they were not why would the band undertake a recent glamorous reissues of all their studio albums cut from hi-res files.
www.ebay.com/itm/HERBIE-HANCOCK-Maiden-Voyage-BLUE-NOTE-BLP-4195-MONO-NY-RVG-/361465687777?hash=item542908aee1%3Ag%3A4SMAAOSwwPhWkrLw&nma=true&si=6pEBvr05EY7%252BVL1RjosJhegM7OM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Five years ago this copy of Maiden Voyage would have fetched $300 to $500. It is getting harder to justify the kind of money people used dole out on vintage lis after you hear the MM 33RPM of Maiden voyage.
Yes, I know there are those who are die hard originalists when it comes to Jazz lis and for them it doesn't matter in a way cause most of them own their copies of all the original they desire but it seems the rank and file of new members in the elite originals club isn't growing fast enough to warrant the kind of insane money that used to be thrown at rare original Jazz LP.
Of course most rare Jazz lps are still worth good money just not as much as they used to:
www.ebay.com/itm/WEBSTER-YOUNG-FOR-LADY-ORIG-D-G-12-MONO-LP-NICE-/361491838180?hash=item542a97b4e4%3Ag%3AJNQAAOSwDuJWw3mj&nma=true&si=6pEBvr05EY7%252BVL1RjosJhegM7OM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
this one used to go for $800 or better but $500 ain't too bad if you ask me.
this topic warrants further exploration and I would invite LJC to apply his research skills on the matter. I would do it myself but I quit grad school cause applying research methodology hurt my head
ciao! 1. I haven't personally noticed a general 'dip' in the value of the vintage jazz LP market...might be there but I haven't noticed it. 2. The copy of For Lady you linked to was described more as a VG+ copy by my grading standards, so 500 bucks seems about right. 3. No "P" on the copy of Maiden Voyage...again, very much in the ballpark of typical values for this type of record. Depending on the album, the scarcity, the number of times that album has been repressed, yes, I'd agree that a popular reissue can affect the value of an original, but I've only found that to be a possibility when the value of the original is much, much closer to the cost of buying the reissue new and when the original isn't over 50 years old. So I don't believe vintage jazz records fit into that category. This is also not to say that I don't see a tremendous overlap between collectors who can afford $1,000 originals and audiophiles who prefer (MM) reissues, meaning I don't imagine that the existence of the MM reissues made a lot of vintage collectors jump the original pressing ship over to the reissue ship. Collectors usually like vintage LPs, audiophiles usually like reissues, so a reissue isn't really going to change much about that the way I see it. |
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