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Post by sztiv on Apr 22, 2020 12:11:34 GMT
any claim to have solely "invented" jazz is very silly. ..and to attempt to attribute it to a specific race is equally silly, identity politics is so tedious. The death of Lee Konitz encouraged me to get a copy of Stan Kenton’s Showcase on CD. Bills Russo and Holman. Nothing like I expected. It does so much more than just swing and Konitz’ playing is indeed exquisite. |
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Post by gregorythefish on Apr 22, 2020 15:38:24 GMT
..and to attempt to attribute it to a specific race is equally silly, identity politics is so tedious.
jazz is the direct result of african bondage in the united states, but that doesn't mean some white people didn't eventually make valuable contributions. still, a lot of whites in jazz, including whiteman (what a name) in my opinion, are guilty of cultural appropriation. not all, but some.
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Post by bassman on May 1, 2020 7:08:39 GMT
..and to attempt to attribute it to a specific race is equally silly, identity politics is so tedious.
jazz is the direct result of african bondage in the united states, but that doesn't mean some white people didn't eventually make valuable contributions. still, a lot of whites in jazz, including whiteman (what a name) in my opinion, are guilty of cultural appropriation. not all, but some.
Ragtime piano players (Jelly Roll Morton being one of them) were among the most essential pioneers of jazz. What they did was, basically, take European-style piano music and endow it with a rhythm faintly reminiscent of their African heritage. A sort of cultural appropriation, albeit by members of a suppressed minority. But I think the main difference is that, being trained professionals in many cases, people like Scott Joplin did at least understand what European music was all about, and the result was an appealing kind of "fusion" music. On the other hand, Paul "Whiteperson" didn't have the slightest idea of either jazz rhythm or jazz improvisation. So, did he really "exploit" black music in any significant way? I doubt it. |
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Post by bassman on May 1, 2020 7:41:10 GMT
any claim to have solely "invented" jazz is very silly. ..and to attempt to attribute it to a specific race is equally silly, identity politics is so tedious. The death of Lee Konitz encouraged me to get a copy of Stan Kenton’s Showcase on CD. Bills Russo and Holman. Nothing like I expected. It does so much more than just swing and Konitz’ playing is indeed exquisite. My appreciation of Stan Kenton's music has been like a love-hate relationship. Ben Ratliff* is right in saying that "[ ... ] Kenton's music doesn't sit comfortably amid the jazz tradition these days. It sounds like an artifact from a very hard-assed and pretentious planet [ ... ] But did Kenton ever try hard. His passion remains impressive and, in a funny-sad way, beautiful." BTW, Kenton Showcase is a great record.
*NYT Essential Library - Jazz, Times Books 2002
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Post by gregorythefish on May 1, 2020 15:49:28 GMT
my opinion of kenton is pretty simple: he was an ass. he wanted jazz to be a traveling carnival. his music was stale then, and it is stale now. this is a strong opinion, and as a reminder, it is just one person's: mine.
and they way you describe whiteman is precisely what appropriation is.
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Post by Doom Girl on May 1, 2020 18:30:44 GMT
I was taken to a Stan Kenton concert sometime in the sixties. My only real memory of it was that it hurt my tender ears. The program, which I still have, shows yearbook style photos of 16 of the horn players – mellophonium (?), bass sax, tuba, bass trombone players et al, and not a black face among them. It doesn’t even list the rhythm section players, so I don’t know who they were. It does say that Stan “proudly presents” vocalist Miss Jean Turner, and there are several pictures of a young African-American woman. The pictures of Miss Turner are inexplicably accompanied by a quote from Camus, “Where lucidity reigns, a scale of value becomes unnecessary,” reflecting, I suppose, nothing more than Kenton’s pretentiousness. It points out that Miss Turner has “soul!”
Looking at the program, I see that there were some good players in this band of Kenton’s – Gabe Baltazar, Charlie Mariano, Marvin Stamm.
The back of the program hypes Kenton’s “Band Clinics” in Indiana and Nevada. The picture shows Kenton lecturing to a large class. Of the 30 or so people I can see clearly, all are white, all are male – and no long-haired freaks here. Perhaps Kenton was trying to "make America great again."
Some years later, I looked into Kenton’s music on my own but did not find it appealing in any way. The best I took away from it was Kenton’s launching of the career of June Christy – excuse me, I mean Miss June Christy (born Shirley Luster). I have enjoyed some of the albums she recorded after leaving Kenton – “Something Cool” and “The Misty Miss Christy” being the best.
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Post by bassman on May 2, 2020 6:51:57 GMT
Funny how the mere mention of Kenton's name still triggers emotional reactions. I like that. He was a megalomaniac, and a great creator. "New Concepts of Artistry In Rhythm" from 1952 (feat. Lee Konitz) is essential music. Full stop. (I must admit, though, that I always skip the prologue that includes Kenton's incredibly dated, overblown voice-overs ...)
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Post by gregorythefish on May 2, 2020 14:20:28 GMT
he was also known to be wildly racist, but whatever.
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Post by bassman on May 2, 2020 15:26:31 GMT
he was also known to be wildly racist, but whatever. Well, yes, in a way (not "wildly"). What he did was this: He sent a telegram to Downbeat in 1956, charging the magazine with reverse racism in its annual critics' polls. On the other hand, he did employ black musicians (Lucky Thompson, for one), and he did have a following among black jazz fans. When he appeared at Carnegie Hall in 1949, more than half the audience was black. But don't get me wrong, GTF: It's not the "Caucasianness" either in (some of) his music or, indeed, in his person that I would like to defend. It's the sheer splendor of (cool!) orchestral sound in the Holman and Russo charts, and it's the superb way the soloists (Lee Konitz, Art Pepper, Charlie Mariano, Frank Rosolino, Conte Candoli ... you name them) are integrated into the early to mid-nineteen-fifties Kenton band. It's precisely these recordings that I admire. |
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Post by sztiv on May 4, 2020 19:51:45 GMT
For what it’s worth my Grandmother wasn’t keen on black people either but despite not playing with Lee Konitz I still loved her. We live in a different world and I’d rather listen to Stan Kenton than get hung up about his opinions.
I rather enjoyed these Kenton LPs.
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