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Post by GST on Mar 25, 2015 19:48:30 GMT
Wonder if anyone can post some clips here or on YouTube of a record or records with groove wear.
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Post by usernaim on Mar 29, 2015 18:16:26 GMT
Surprised at the misinformation here.
a) Mistracking sounds like distortion--mild to severe fuzz, or if very bad, crackling. It starts happening as the needle gets worn down. If that's not the issue, then cartridge alignment or tracking force or antiskating could potentially be adjusted to solve the problem. Different stylus profiles may track areas that are problematic.
b) If a record is mistracked repeatedly, it wears out the groove and makes it sound like that every time. This is a big problem on old records as advanced stylus shapes were unavailable, the correct parameters for alignment were little followed, most tonearms had no antiskate, tracking forces were much higher than today, and sound reproduction was generally fuzzy and distorted, making it more difficult to tell when your record player was itself the cause and needed a new needle.
In the case of groove damage, cleaning won't help. Summing to mono will reduce some of the distortion (and low frequency rumble).
Mistracking and hence groove damage can indeed affect one instrument, or one area of the disk, or one particular sound. The groove is like a bobsled track and the cartridge has to stay on the ground. If it bounces around, you hear distortion. If it keeps bouncing in the same spot every time you play it, it cuts into the vinyl.
It gets harder to track on the inner grooves because the curvature is tighter; hence what's known as Inner Groove Distortion (IGD), a form of mistracking. This form, which is due to geometry, can often be solved with "line-contact" or "micro-ridge" stylus which have much thinner profiles and so fit in the tightly packed grooves better.
But some passages are too loud for the stylus to stay in contact, or the combination of tones is not one handled well by the cartridge suspension (think of how your car goes over potholes--it's tuned for certain frequency and magnitude of disturbance and some it handles well and others send the car shaking). Most typically this will be vocal sibilants (not an issue on Blue Notes) or cymbals, or trumpet. Sometimes it is a combination of bass sounds with higher frequencies that a cartridge can't handle.
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Post by Rich on Mar 30, 2015 2:16:01 GMT
Surprised at the misinformation here. a) Mistracking sounds like distortion--mild to severe fuzz, or if very bad, crackling. It starts happening as the needle gets worn down. If that's not the issue, then cartridge alignment or tracking force or antiskating could potentially be adjusted to solve the problem. Different stylus profiles may track areas that are problematic. b) If a record is mistracked repeatedly, it wears out the groove and makes it sound like that every time. This is a big problem on old records as advanced stylus shapes were unavailable, the correct parameters for alignment were little followed, most tonearms had no antiskate, tracking forces were much higher than today, and sound reproduction was generally fuzzy and distorted, making it more difficult to tell when your record player was itself the cause and needed a new needle. In the case of groove damage, cleaning won't help. Summing to mono will reduce some of the distortion (and low frequency rumble). Mistracking and hence groove damage can indeed affect one instrument, or one area of the disk, or one particular sound. The groove is like a bobsled track and the cartridge has to stay on the ground. If it bounces around, you hear distortion. If it keeps bouncing in the same spot every time you play it, it cuts into the vinyl. It gets harder to track on the inner grooves because the curvature is tighter; hence what's known as Inner Groove Distortion (IGD), a form of mistracking. This form, which is due to geometry, can often be solved with "line-contact" or "micro-ridge" stylus which have much thinner profiles and so fit in the tightly packed grooves better. But some passages are too loud for the stylus to stay in contact, or the combination of tones is not one handled well by the cartridge suspension (think of how your car goes over potholes--it's tuned for certain frequency and magnitude of disturbance and some it handles well and others send the car shaking). Most typically this will be vocal sibilants (not an issue on Blue Notes) or cymbals, or trumpet. Sometimes it is a combination of bass sounds with higher frequencies that a cartridge can't handle. Hi there and welcome. As should be indicated by my posts in this thread, I agree with your assessment of groove wear caused by mistracking, which results in the fuzzy type of distortion you described. I find your description to be a thorough and clear account of the phenomenon, but I'm confused about your comment about 'misinformation'. If there was any information that was incorrect by anyone here including myself, why would that be 'surprising'? This is an online forum for jazz record collectors, not an electrical engineer convention. I don't think what I have personally said here contradicts what you have, though. I would have delved into detail but as I said I have an article written on the phenomenon that I'm waiting to publish.
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Post by Rich on Mar 30, 2015 6:45:01 GMT
Wonder if anyone can post some clips here or on YouTube of a record or records with groove wear. Finally published the article--audio clips and photos provided by Kevin Gray included! dgmono.com/2015/03/30/groove-wear/
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 30, 2015 14:20:02 GMT
usernaim:
"surprised at some of the misinformation here"? no need for high-horse statements.
welcome, though. i think rich covered most of what my response would have been, but if you had read the whole thread, you would realize two things:
1) though groove wear is the most likely candidate, which we all knew and mentioned, we hadn't actually HEARD the record, and were covering many bases. 2) this wasn't some theoretical discussion. a rare copy of a treasured album was on the chopping block and we were trying to help eliminate all other possibilities before it had to go back to the seller.
groove wear caused by mistracking makes sense, and that's the conclusion we finally came to.
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Post by GST on Mar 30, 2015 14:37:13 GMT
Wonder if anyone can post some clips here or on YouTube of a record or records with groove wear. Finally published the article--audio clips and photos provided by Kevin Gray included! dgmono.com/2015/03/30/groove-wear/Perfect. Thanks! I've sent a number of records back recently because I thought they had groove wear, although the sellers say they play perfectly on their system. I know other records play fine on my turntable, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something wrong with the alignment/cartridge even though I just got it serviced a few months ago. I’m going to lay off buying anything vintage for a while and enjoy what I have
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Post by Rich on Mar 30, 2015 15:49:14 GMT
Perfect. Thanks! I've sent a number of records back recently because I thought they had groove wear, although the sellers say they play perfectly on their system. I know other records play fine on my turntable, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something wrong with the alignment/cartridge even though I just got it serviced a few months ago. I’m going to lay off buying anything vintage for a while and enjoy what I have GST, My example in my article is certainly an extreme example, but I have been in the same situation as you where the distortion is more subtle, and I am fascinated when others can't affirm that they hear what I'm hearing. It's funny though, sometimes I'm saying to people, 'That sounds fine to me' when they think a record or CD or particular mastering has issues (audiophiles), other times it's the other way around. Also, in my experience I have found that the bottom line is that except for a few rare instances where the wear is extremely minor and barely audible, no type of system tweak will ever completely eliminate distortion from wear on a record, including a change of alignment. But since you're talking about alignment, I'm assuming you're using an elliptical or micro-line stylus? If you're worrisome about alignment, I'd like to recommend a spherical stylus if you haven't already thought of it, since alignment is virtually a non-issue with them due to their design. I find sphericals to sound just fine (though I usually use an elliptical because in a few instances I find it tracks a little better). End of the day, my feeling is that clean records with a decent spherical cartridge on a decent turntable should produce fine results. Audiophiles will disagree with me on this but I find the improvements beyond that to be relatively subtle. But the underlying point I am trying to make in my article is that I find that the record is most important element in the chain.
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moko
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by moko on Apr 4, 2015 13:12:55 GMT
I'm not sure which part of Japan you are living in but I am fairly certain the Hot Step record store in Kyoto had copies of Blue Train when I went there a couple of weeks ago. It's not a cheap store mostly Blue Note originals etc but it might be worth contacting them if you are looking for an original copy and it would probably be cheaper with the current exchange rates than buying one from the UK
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2015 5:56:37 GMT
I'm not sure which part of Japan you are living in but I am fairly certain the Hot Step record store in Kyoto had copies of Blue Train when I went there a couple of weeks ago. It's not a cheap store mostly Blue Note originals etc but it might be worth contacting them if you are looking for an original copy and it would probably be cheaper with the current exchange rates than buying one from the UK Yeah, buying records from the UK or the US when you're paid in yen is a costly enterprise. I wouldn't normally do it, especially from the UK, but Blue Train is one of those records I'm prepared to part with a bit more money for. I saw it in Banana Records' Jazz Syndicate store in Nagoya two weeks for only 3 man but the record wasn't in great condition. I'd probably pay over double that for a really nice copy. The way I look at it, I'll probably listen to that record a hundred times before I croak it, so it's only a few dollars per listen... I live in Sapporo-shi (I'm from Ireland) but I will be in Kyoto in about 5 weeks' time and will check out Hot Step. Thanks for the tip-off! May I ask where you live and where you're from?
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moko
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by moko on Apr 5, 2015 10:34:06 GMT
Hi I'm from London but my wife is Japanese from the city of Nara (which isn't a good place for records) so every year I get about 3 weeks to visit the family and if I'm really lucky I get a few days when I'm allowed to go record shopping .
Mostly I buy in either Osaka or Kyoto but occasionally from Tokyo (where everything seems much cheaper). In regards to hunting records in Japan I hope you have managed to get hold of the great Record Map book which is a great resource for finding hidden gems
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Apr 5, 2015 12:04:04 GMT
Would love to visit Nara, I've heard great things about it.
I recommend Nagoya for record shopping should you get the chance, particularly that Jazz Syndicate branch of Banana Records. It wasn't cheap, but neither was it terribly expensive. I agree Osaka is very expensive.
I was thinking about buying that guide and asked my teacher about bringing it to class in preparation for my trip. Would the fact that I read Japanese very slowly and ponderously reduce its be benefit to me at all, do you think?
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moko
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by moko on Apr 5, 2015 13:05:12 GMT
I can't read Japanese at all , so the way I use it is for the maps of the areas (one for each major town/city) and then put the web addresses into Google translate you can normally get a pretty good idea of what sort of shop it is and if you're lucky it will also have pictures. The stores that have purely Japanese hiragana names or worse kanji well you need someone to translate for you (this can be difficult with reluctant wife!!!)
I haven't got the latest one but when I bought my copy a few years ago the easiest place to find it was on Amazon.JP or Ratukan
What are you doing in Sapporo? I've always fancied a trip to the North but the furthest I managed to make was the Japan Alps which were beautiful but from what I've heard not a patch on Hokkido
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Apr 6, 2015 4:30:07 GMT
I'm going to buy that then. That could turn out to be a great tip, thanks.
I teach English (surprise surprise) in a high school here in the city. How about yourself? I've been here nearly two years. It's a nice job, but I'd take a pay cut and go back to record shop work in a heartbeat. Are you into boarding or skiing? If so Hokkaido is a must - 6 and a half metres of snow, on average, every winter in Sapporo. Murder to walk around in/on/though, as you can imagine, but heaven to plough downhill through on a plank. The scenery is incredible too, but ideally you'd want a driver's licence so you can do it at your own pace.
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on May 31, 2015 7:06:18 GMT
In regards to hunting records in Japan I hope you have managed to get hold of the great Record Map book which is a great resource for finding hidden gems Hey Moko, just returning to this thread to thank you for this advice. I bought the book a few days after you suggested it, and not only did it guide me to some major scores in Tokyo, but also three more great shops here in Sapporo, where I thought I knew every place. Best two thousand yen I've ever spent. If we ever cross paths I'm going to buy you a couple of beers. Nice one.
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Post by gst on Jul 28, 2016 23:31:29 GMT
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