Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99 
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Post by Evan on Mar 15, 2015 8:43:07 GMT
Hello there everybody.
This is my first post, either here or on LJC, but I've been following and reading all you guys for a while. I'd like to echo the thoughts in one of your earlier posts here, Richard, about here and LJC being great places for friendly discussion. I've learned so much from all of you in less than a year of collecting jazz records. Long may it continue.
I'm afraid I'm in a bit of distress and in need of some advice. I had a copy of Blue Train (47W63 both sides) delivered yesterday and am worried about certain parts of it, and the problem of groove wear more generally. Your considered advice and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I played the record the moment it arrived, as you do. There was surface noise from start to finish, but it was minimal, the kind of thing that a good seeing to by a VPI clears up. More worryingly, though, was some distortion in the high end during parts of Lazy Bird - noticeable but not terrible during Lee Morgan's solo, but very noticeable during the Curtis Fuller sole that follows immediately. I took it for a VPI clean at my local dealer today, and as I expected, most of the surface noise was eliminated. Unfortunately, there was no improvement with the distortion.
So to my question: in your opinions, is the distortion I'm experiencing now groove wear? What does groove wear usually sound like to you? Could it be the case that my rig in some way can't "handle" the loudness of this particular section? Do your copies of this record do anything similar?
I contacted the (Discogs) seller, who was very, very courteous, offering a full refund, including shipping costs (from Japan back to London). As far as I'm concerned the rest of the record is more than acceptable, so if this can be solved I'd definitely keep it. It sounds like a minor complaint, I know, but Curtis Fuller is my number one! So if it's a terminal problem it'll have to go back.
Many thanks in advance for your help and thoughts.
Evan
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Post by alunsevern on Mar 15, 2015 16:00:14 GMT
Evan, I don't have an original or evn early press of this, but oddly I was playing it just this morning -- for the first time in years and years. My Liberty pressing sounds acceptable to my ears and there is certainly no distortion -- in Fuller's playing or anyone else's attributable to recording at too high a level.
If you are confident that the VPI clean was a thorough one, then what you describe does sound as if it could be groove wear. This was -- is -- a popular record and would have received heavy use. One thing I would say, as your seller has offered full return, you could suggest to him or her that you will give it a second VPI clean and then make a decision. I have a Moth rather than a VPI machine and while I wouldn'tbbe without it, it isn't infallible. I have known a second clean achieve results that the first didn't.
At least a second clean would also help assure you -- and the seller -- that you are doing everything possible to make sure a problem actually does exist before incurring the expense of return.
If I were in your shoes, however, I have to say that if I had any lingering doubt at all it would spoil my long term enjoyment of the record. Personally, I would almost certainly return it for a refund.
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Post by dottorjazz on Mar 15, 2015 21:18:35 GMT
in your opinions, is the distortion I'm experiencing now groove wear? What does groove wear usually sound like to you? Could it be the case that my rig in some way can't "handle" the loudness of this particular section? Do your copies of this record do anything similar? I've carefully relistened to Lazy Bird on my two copies of 1577, one double 47West63, the other 47West63/NY23. I couldn't hear distortion at all. what looks strange is that if distortion's due to groove wear from a damaged stylus, you ought to hear it throughout the entire LP, not a track alone. or maybe could be a pressing defect. I've a Davis' Conception on yellow prestige NY that's almost unlistenable on one side but perfect on the other. pressing defect? Attachment Deleted |
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Mar 16, 2015 8:52:58 GMT
...if I had any lingering doubt at all it would spoil my long term enjoyment of the record [...] I would almost certainly return it for a refund. My sentiments exactly, Alun. That it will spoil my long term enjoyment of it is ultimately why it has to go back. A second clean is a good idea, though. Inexpensive, nothing to lose, and everything to gain - even if it only ends up being proving to the seller I that I made every effort to fix the problem. Thanks for the reply. |
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Mar 16, 2015 9:14:39 GMT
I've carefully relistened to Lazy Bird on my two copies of 1577, one double 47West63, the other 47West63/NY23. I couldn't hear distortion at all. what looks strange is that if distortion's due to groove wear from a damaged stylus, you ought to hear it throughout the entire LP, not a track alone. or maybe could be a pressing defect. I've a Davis' Conception on yellow prestige NY that's almost unlistenable on one side but perfect on the other. pressing defect? I appreciate you getting two records out to help with my query, sir! I agree it's odd that only that section of the record is affected. I'm going to take Alun's advice and clean it one more time. I also had the idea of bringing it to a store I visit quite a bit that sells vintage audio. They have several incredible set-ups in there for doing customer demos - I once got to listen to Rollins, Vol. 1 on a Garrard 301 through a Macintosh 240 (and some other stuff I didn't recognise, including the speakers - Victor something-or-others), it was like he was blowing in my ear. Anyway, I figure if it comes through distorted on that rig the record is doomed. If not, the plot thickens. Thanks for your reply. I could offer to buy whichever of those copies you favoured less, but you look quite attached to both of them in that picture! The one in your left hand is the one that looks most like mine, i.e. very turquoise. It's an absolute beauty. |
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 16, 2015 15:03:32 GMT
this is extremely weird. i know a little bit about physics and sound (thanks, college!) though my specialization is pure math. in any case, if just ONE SOLO, and not the backing musicians, sounds distorted, it MUST be from the source tape, no question. if the backing musicians sound distorted as well, but there is no other distortion elsewhere, then perhaps the original owner just really loved that solo and played it more than other parts of the album. it can't be your needle, or the whole record would sound weird.
or it is a pressing flaw.
but if it was played so often, there could be shit in the grooves just right there. that's happened to me. a really good and deep VPI clean is needed to solve that.
the other option is the weirdest of all. trombone has a very rich harmonic palette: lots of overtones compared to other front-line instruments, and many very low by comparison. test some other solo trombone from records you know sound great on your system. your speakers, especially if they are paper, might be struggling with so many clustered overtones. this happens with time to any speakers, but takes a while. i didn't believe this was a thing until my acoustic physicist friend took me to his research space at his university and recreated the effect with a function generator and various speakers. it was weird and subtle, but it was there. this is probably not the problem, nor would i worry about it, as it takes a very special set of circumstances to create. just riffing.
best of luck! please report back!
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Post by dottorjazz on Mar 16, 2015 21:11:39 GMT
Thanks for your reply. I could offer to buy whichever of those copies you favoured less, but you look quite attached to both of them in that picture! The one in your left hand is the one that looks most like mine, i.e. very turquoise. It's an absolute beauty. so sorry diginjapan, I love my beauties! hope you can enjoy your copy. have it washed some more times. The one on the left bears this inside:  Attachment Deleted |
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Mar 17, 2015 9:06:51 GMT
...if just ONE SOLO, and not the backing musicians, sounds distorted, it MUST be from the source tape, no question. if the backing musicians sound distorted as well, but there is no other distortion elsewhere, then perhaps the original owner just really loved that solo and played it more than other parts of the album. it can't be your needle, or the whole record would sound weird. Thank you for the reply, gregorythefish... if that is your real name... I've been in touch with the seller again. He just sent me a very interesting mail, suggesting something I've not heard of before - something that would seem to confirm your theory. A quote from his reply: "...distortion of that kind can be subjective, unless caused by damage. There is no question those horns went into the red when recording, but after that has been mastered and pressed into various pressings, what comes out of the speaker in each home can vary. Lee Morgan particularly has many examples of playing too loud. The only way that would not distort on the final press, is if pressed quieter. it would be preferable to have the original true sound (with distortion)." This certainly makes sense. I must say the sound from this LP is incredible. I have a few original Blue Notes, but they're all NY labels, and stereo. None of them are even in the same league as this for sound quality. And yet, contrary to this guy's claim, I would still prefer a slightly quieter pressing that didn't have the distortion, brief though it is. What do you guys make of his comments? Are any of you interested in hearing a rip of it and sharing your thoughts? |
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 17, 2015 12:44:54 GMT
What do you guys make of his comments? Are any of you interested in hearing a rip of it and sharing your thoughts? I'm VERY interested in a rip. Could maybe make a few more assesments. The seller seems willing to be deal, but also eager to not lose the sale, which is understandable. |
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Mar 17, 2015 14:15:31 GMT
[/quote]I'm VERY interested in a rip. Could maybe make a few more assesments.
[/quote]
I would love to hear what you think. I've recorded Moment's Notice as well as Lazy Bird, because that also sounds off. Now, confession time: I don't know how to share these rips...
It's my bedtime too I'm afraid. If sharing merely involves emailing them, anybody who would like a listen - either to offer their thoughts or just curiosity - can PM me with their email address and I'll send the files in the morning. Or, indeed, follow any other instructions for sharing, in the morning.
Cheers. Goodnight.
Evan
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Post by Rich on Mar 18, 2015 3:26:10 GMT
Hi Evan,
I find your situation quite interesting because I am coincidentally about to publish an article on groove wear on my blog. Greg made a lot of good points, especially the one that trombone (and trumpet) have sonic characteristics which make them more likely to distort on worn records than other instruments, including saxophone. Might I also mention that the phenomenon of distortion from groove wear is more likely to occur near the inside of a record ('inner groove distortion') because the grooves are packed more tightly there and it's harder for a stylus to track properly there when the grooves become worn. Thus your description makes sense in light of the fact that Lazy Bird is the last song on the side. However, piano is also a common culprit of distortion from wear. Do you hear the same type of distortion on the piano solo in that song? Anyway, I'm guessing that it's wear, and though it may be more difficult to perceive after the Fuller solo, my guess is that it affects that side from the Fuller solo on and maybe even before to a similarly subtle extent.
Just like Greg, I am curious to hear a needle drop, and I will PM you my email address now.
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Post by gregorythefish on Mar 18, 2015 14:39:54 GMT
i have sent my e-mail to you, evan. no rush. excited to help if i can!
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Post by Rich on Mar 18, 2015 15:46:31 GMT
Just listened and I'm compelled to say the distortion is being caused by groove wear. What a shame when a record like that plays with no pops or ticks but is irreversibly marked with wear. I've never heard an original mono pressing of Blue Train before, and aside from the wear it was a delight. I agree that Lazy Bird is worse than Moment's Notice, but on both tracks I heard a tinge of wear throughout (On Lazy Bird the distortion was quite audible on the loudest notes during the piano solo). Since your clips are stereo, I thought that the distortion might be improved upon by summing the channels, which I did in my recording software, and for the parts with milder distortion there was an improvement, but for parts like the Fuller solo it was still quite present. :\
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Post by alunsevern on Mar 18, 2015 17:45:21 GMT
Excellent analysis and help. You couldn't have done this before the internet -- and maybe not before LJC either. It's a shame to hear that groove wear is confirmed -- but on the other hand, you now have a pretty categorical analysis to offer the seller, should it be required.
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Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by Evan on Mar 19, 2015 12:49:38 GMT
Great stuff, Rich, thank you. Excellent analysis indeed. It is such a pity. There is actually surface noise in quiet parts of the record, but no loud ticks or pops, and it would otherwise have been a keeper and a treasure. Oh well, back it goes.
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