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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 17, 2017 17:09:27 GMT
i enthusiastically agree, dott!
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 18, 2017 8:10:06 GMT
Varèse, the avant-garde composer said that "music is organised sound". The musicologist Jean-Jacques Nattiez has written: "The border between music and noise is always culturally defined -- which implies that, even within a single society, this border does not always pass through the same place; in short, there is rarely a consensus... By all accounts there is no single and intercultural universal concept defining what music might be."
Either of those views suggest, I think, that we sometimes struggle to differentiate between music and noise; perhaps they also suggest that however we define it, noise has a place in music. Perhaps they also suggest that our definition of 'music' is constantly shifting. For example, compare the orthodoxies of Dixieland jazz with what the free and 'out' players were serving up just thirty or forty years later.
I like noise. But it has to be well done, accomplished noise!
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Post by dottorjazz on Sept 18, 2017 12:08:11 GMT
Mingus was criticized for the "noises" he put on one of his compositions (we are in pre-Dolphy era): if I'm not wrong it was A Foggy Day on Pithecanthropus erectus...
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 18, 2017 15:57:17 GMT
Dott, You're not wrong -- it was indeed A Foggy Day and quite beautiful it is too...
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Post by gst on Sept 18, 2017 16:11:57 GMT
I just listened to the video Dott posted and I must say like a lot of avant-garde art I like the concept more than the execution. I suppose it's something to experience, but it doesn't usually drive me to revisit the piece more than once.
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Post by sztiv on Sept 18, 2017 17:53:31 GMT
Therefore I guess it also figures that if there's no consensus as to what constitutes music then we probably all have different opinions about what noise is.
But if someone call's something avant-garde art then presumably they are saying they think it is noise.
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Post by dottorjazz on Sept 19, 2017 12:40:47 GMT
3 thoughts:
1) music is the Art of Sound Sound is an aural sensation that reaches our ears a car crashing produces a sound a car crashing ain't music a car crashing produces noise (for me, maybe not for all) can noise be Music? I have no reply
2) Trane produced wonderful sounds till 1964: it was his Music and I love it Trane produced wonderful noises after 1965: it was his Music and I love it the only difference I can find is that a greater amount of attention and feeling is needed
3) anyone can produce Sound, with instruments or objects but: not everything produced by an instrument is Music and many objects can produce Music. this is intimately tied to performers and/or tied to listeners' taste that's the only reason why Music can be loved or hated.
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 19, 2017 13:58:28 GMT
Hello everyone --
Talking of the avant-garde (as we have been doing here) and also of ESP (which we have elsewhere) does anyone know of -- and more importantly possess a copy of -- the Lowell Davidson Trio (s/t) on ESP?
I had never heard of him until i came across a mention of him on AudioStream and found a link to something on YT. Extraordinary stuff -- rather like a quieter 'early Cecil Taylor', perhaps.
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 19, 2017 14:13:55 GMT
i love lowell davidson but still lack this LP. i have many opinions on noise vs music. i will forego writing a poorly executed essay but leave this one thought:
one can walk into a music store and purchase audio recordings of the following: rain forests, thunderstorms, birdsong, whale call, etc. this may not be music to all but clearly we have agreed tacitly as a society to market, store, and treat it like music. the line, she is thin.
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Post by dottorjazz on Sept 19, 2017 15:54:49 GMT
complete session on Spotify. it's very similar to early Taylor, more intimate. I like it. Attachment Deleted
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Post by sztiv on Sept 19, 2017 17:47:31 GMT
2) Trane produced wonderful sounds till 1964: it was his Music and I love it Trane produced wonderful noises after 1965: it was his Music and I love it the only difference I can find is that a greater amount of attention and feeling is needed This post encouraged me try again with "Live At The Village Vanguard Again" which I'm listening to whilst typing. Did you mean that the listener needs greater attention and feeling to love Coltrane's post 1965 work or that Coltrane needed more attention and feeling to play it? Alun I just sold a box set of Bach's 6 suites for solo cello and immediately reinvested the money in some more post 1969 jazz including some of your recommendations from earlier on. Mal Waldron, Andrew Hill and I also managed to find a copy of Marilyn Crispell Gaia which as you said is on this tiny little label Leo. Whilst I was it I also purchased another Leo release Keshavan Maslak - Loved By Millions. After reading the Allmusic review I couldn't resist. Does anyone know this LP? Attachments:
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Post by dottorjazz on Sept 20, 2017 5:28:22 GMT
the listener, not the player. in order to undertand or possibly like Trane's last 2 years, almost all known paramethers were lost. a different approach was needed. many didn't make it and lost the chance to appreciate this new way. the same happened with Miles: how many listeners left after Bitches Brew? here Miles' music became more simple, Trane's more complicate. but it was the different way their music went that left behind lots of fans. these people couldn't rearrange their minds to musicians' changes. It took years, for me, to understand Miles' way , and didn't like it. it took much less for Trane, and I liked it.
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 20, 2017 7:51:28 GMT
2) Trane produced wonderful sounds till 1964: it was his Music and I love it Trane produced wonderful noises after 1965: it was his Music and I love it the only difference I can find is that a greater amount of attention and feeling is needed [...] Alun I just sold a box set of Bach's 6 suites for solo cello and immediately reinvested the money in some more post 1969 jazz including some of your recommendations from earlier on. Mal Waldron, Andrew Hill and I also managed to find a copy of Marilyn Crispell Gaia which as you said is on this tiny little label Leo. Whilst I was it I also purchased another Leo release Keshavan Maslak - Loved By Millions. After reading the Allmusic review I couldn't resist. Does anyone know this LP? Personally, I wouldn't be without a set of the solo cello suites -- for those times when nothing else will do, as it were -- but I'm glad you have been able to reinvest wisely in Waldron, Hill and Crispell. What a trio you have there. Keshavan Maslak is an entirely new name to me -- whether as Keshavan Maslak or as Kenny Millions... He sounds -- from the snippet I listened to on YT -- a little like a younger, less serious Brotzmann....possibly. Let us know what you make of it -- and the other things you bought. SaveSave
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Post by dottorjazz on Sept 20, 2017 16:06:47 GMT
Personally, I wouldn't be without a set of the solo cello suites SaveSaveme too, not many folks here are interested in Classical. for me Bach is #1 in Music.
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 20, 2017 16:58:15 GMT
Personally, I wouldn't be without a set of the solo cello suites SaveSaveme too, not many folks here are interested in Classical. for me Bach is #1 in Music. The cello suites, the endless riches of the solo keyboard music (whether Glenn Gould, Angela Hewitt, Schiff, Parahia or the many others) -- I don't play this music often but there have been times when it has been *all* I have played.... And it may well be the case again. SaveSave
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