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Post by clifford on Jul 27, 2017 15:10:12 GMT
Hard to make music of the 40s and 60s in the 2010s if you are a currently working musician. Hi Clifford,
We play R&B and Swing for young (and not so young) lindy hop dancers. It's not necessarily the music I listen to on a regular basis.
Ok, that's fair, but recreations of earlier forms for a specific purpose are entirely different. Then again, if you truly improvise, even while representing an earlier style, you'll still have *something* new in your playing. Speaking more generally, though, and as someone who's not always on board with everything contemporary (or older), I would rather hear new music in performance. Listening to historical recordings is important and I do a lot of it -- probably as much as anyone here -- but it's not the same as going out to see new music. I also recognize the boon of living in a city where every night there are several concerts of creative improvising going on concurrently. |
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Post by bassman on Jul 27, 2017 18:30:57 GMT
Hi Clifford,
We play R&B and Swing for young (and not so young) lindy hop dancers. It's not necessarily the music I listen to on a regular basis.
Ok, that's fair, but recreations of earlier forms for a specific purpose are entirely different. Then again, if you truly improvise, even while representing an earlier style, you'll still have *something* new in your playing. Speaking more generally, though, and as someone who's not always on board with everything contemporary (or older), I would rather hear new music in performance. Listening to historical recordings is important and I do a lot of it -- probably as much as anyone here -- but it's not the same as going out to see new music. I also recognize the boon of living in a city where every night there are several concerts of creative improvising going on concurrently. Quite right, Clifford. There's nothing quite like listening to live music if it's good and if the circumstances (noise level etc.) allow you to focus on it. On the other hand, jazz music and recording techniques developed simultaneously, and studio work has come to be at least as *valuable* as the music produced in live gigs. Needless to say I'm not a great fan of repertory orchestras etc., I prefer listening to the original discs.
Personally, I may seem to be contradicting myself, so: On a different (and much lower) level, the philosophy behind the music I'm actually playing is very simple. If some of today's people enjoy listening to, and dancing to, nineteen-forties "jump" music - why not give them a live music experience that may add to their enjoyment? It's fun, that's all. And you're so right about improvising. It's always brand new, never mind the stylistic context.
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Post by clifford on Jul 27, 2017 18:47:35 GMT
good point re: recording technique development.
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Post by alunsevern on Aug 7, 2017 11:20:56 GMT
Steve, An excellent question. I'm pressed for time and so will simply say (without trying to indicate specific chronology of recordings):
- Stan Tracey was recording brilliantly right up to his death and there are few you might pick that would disappoint.
- Cecil Taylor has been mentioned....but where to start? I'd say FOR OLIM on Soul Note is as accessible as anything is likely to be.
- Iain Ballamy's FOOD line-up for an avant-garde-ish take on jazz plus electronics.
- Steve Coleman, if you like that angular, mathematical Ornette-ish approach to jazz....but he's over-recorded (in my view) and you need to be picky.
- You mention Geri Allen. The LP ETUDES with Motian and Haden on Soul Note is something of a classic.
- Abdullah Ibrahim from any period and in any configuration if you like the Township Ellington, as some have called him.
- Dave Holland's various line-ups (inc with Steve Coleman). plus big bands, can be excellent (primarily ECM, I think).
I have huge gaps in the years you mention but found that there is tons to like on Soul Note/Black Saint (David Murray, Ran Blake) and of course a vast amount (that needs very selective listening) on ECM.
I'll return to this as time permits.
Later....
- An excellent 1979 LP: Lennox Avenue Breakdown, Arthur Blythe -- this demonstrates that 70s jazz doesn't absolutely have to be electric fusion. A terrific record.
- Old & New Dreams, the Don Cherry et al "Ornette tribute band"... No, of course that isn't what they really are -- they are a continuation of the Ornate legacy by other means. Excellent LPs on ECM and (I think) Soul Note.
- Anthony Braxton -- too numerous to mention and on more labels than you can shake a stick at.... If you like Braxton's weird blend of formalism, pastiche and avant gardens, then again there is a goldmine waiting to be discovered throughout the 80s, 90s and up to the present.
- Marilyn Crispell: if you like free improv piano then Crispell is one of the under-rated giants of the form. Her work with Anthony Braxton (if the line-up has her name it, it will be a good record) and with countless other improvisors shouldn't be missed, nor should her solo sets. There's a record called GAIA from the late-80s on the tiny Leo label that is simply stunning...
- Mal Waldron, the piano giant is another artist who recorded quite prolifically throughout the period you mention, and on numerous labels. There's scarcely a dud record in those that I have sampled, and at one time, if it said 'Mal Waldron' on the cover I bought it unheard...and was never disappointed.
- Andrew Hill's 80s and 90s non-Blue Note records on Arista and Soul Note (to name just two labels I can think of) are essential -- they may even be better than some of the more lauded Blue Note stuff that was released in the early-2000s.
- Misha Mengelberg, Steve Lacy et al -- Change of Season (interpretations of Herbie Nichols) and Regeneration (interpretations of Nichols and Monk) are classic records -- and like everything I have on Black Saint/Soul Note, impeccably recorded.
- Martial Solal - the great French pianist/improvisor and band leader.... Virtually anything I have ver heard from whatever period has something to commend it. The solo live sets on Blue Note are a great starting point.
I know ECM gets a lot of criticism and its particular blend of Nordic contemporary classical-meets-world-music isn't to everyone's taste, but the fact remains that the label has put out some essential jazz over the years. Again, there's a lot I wouldn't listen to (let alone buy) but Enrico Rava, Tomasz Stanko, Mark Turner and many more have produced excellent work for the label.
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Post by dottorjazz on Aug 7, 2017 17:46:44 GMT
as always, I give another try, after suggestions. I would like to know opinions on Izipho Zam, I listened to very carefully.
for me it's bullshit.
I've encountered Mr. Sanders during his long path with Coltrane. I dug him. he was an original voice, amidst Trane's last years, which had a role and completed Trane's.
but here, alas, is he joking? is he kidding listeners?. I feel so.
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Post by gst on Aug 7, 2017 17:54:10 GMT
Dottor. Do you like any of Sanders' work as a leader or is it just this particular album? I was listening to "Jewels of Thoughts" the other day and my wife was having none of it.  |
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 7, 2017 17:55:48 GMT
when dott hears some free jazz and thinks it's bullshit, it's time for me to listen again. i haven't listened in awhile, but i remember liking "izipho zam" personally.
what solo pharoah DO you enjoy, dott?
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Post by alunsevern on Aug 7, 2017 18:25:34 GMT
Dott, I haven't heard Izipho Zam but I do know that I have thrown out more Sanders records than I have kept. I think he became sloppy and lazy.
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Post by dottorjazz on Aug 7, 2017 19:39:12 GMT
as I wrote, I do like Sanders' work with Trane but I've never been convinced by his solo work. I think Sanders never reached the stature to stand alone. anyway I'm interested in changing opinion under suggestion. my negative judgment was for Izipho Zam.
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 8, 2017 14:12:25 GMT
having just relistened, i like izipho zam, but not as much as some other sanders solo work. mostly, i enjoy it for the occasionally interesting sonic palette it creates. the tuba drones are interesting, and the harmonies in the main theme of the title track between the horns are quite pleasing, too.
dott, do you enjoy "karma" or "tauhid" or "thembi" or "village of the pharoahs"? how about "pharoah's first" on ESP disk? those 5 are my go-to pharoah records and I love them all.
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Post by dottorjazz on Aug 9, 2017 9:35:43 GMT
I’m not a critic and I judge music on my personal basis, so what I like couldn’t be loved by other listeners and vice versa. always happy to give another try to music I discarded in the past. sometimes, but very seldom, I change my mind.
no difficult to admit I didn’t like Sanders’ solo work, nor Alice Coltrane’s, when it came out. all Impulse albums were easy to found, ESP-DISK wasn’t at all.
KARMA:
the creator has a master plan: first theme could have been written by Coltrane, then a sort of ALS second theme. over 32 minutes. even if Coltrane was not kissed by synthesis in his last 2 years, this word is absent here( but Sanders ain’t Trane).
colors: vocal track. only interesting for brief Sanders’ work
VILLAGE OF THE PHAROAHS
village of the pharoahs: 3 parts, boring, boring, boring
myth: 1’44”, couldn’t be nothing inside
mansion words: Sanders plays soprano but in a very simple mood, nice the second theme but undeveloped
memories of Lee Morgan: a requiem, tonal until last 30 seconds
went like it came: chanting and shouting, rough tenor, more in a r&r vein. in the same period Archie Shepp, for the same label, published his worse music, very similar in construction.
ESP-DISK
definitely his best. I ain’t got this one yet but will search for sure. an avant-bop quintet where the avant is Pharoah and the bop all other musicians. solo space for all but drums.
THEMBI
(almost) no vocals! and this is good enough to lift up the grade. there’re several editing and multi recordings which aren’t bad. nice themes. the best Impulse for me. a lot of percussions, much better than in previous albums. Roy Haynes on last two tracks (and he makes a difference). not essential but in the sufficiency range.
TAUHID
his first Impulse album, recorded in Nov 1966 while still with Trane. Sun Ra’s influence is clear on the long track Upper Egypt & Lower Egypt. best solo on Aum/Venus/Capricorn rising. the only historic Free guitarist in my knowledge, Sonny Sharrock, never liked him. in this album there are good themes. same judgment as Thembi.
what can I say: the role of Sanders looking at his solo output is, for me, not essential in my collection, except ESP-DISK 1003. his role as second voice in many Trane’s records IS essential. thanks to GTF to have stimulated me in re-listening to Pharoah’s music.
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 9, 2017 17:54:46 GMT
I’m not a critic and I judge music on my personal basis, I think that's best way to judge music, critic or not. Of course, you've been listening since before I was born, but still. I agree with that. Pharoah's work, like so much in the general 'free' vein, is indeed a matter of personal opinion. I argue frequently with people that not liking something is not the same as that thing being bad. I rather enjoy "Izipho Zam" and most of Pharoah's solo work, but I am not so pompous as to lack the ability to understand why other people might not like it. I'm just surprised, I would have guessed that you'd enjoy most of it. As far as some of your thoughts, I would add: The theme from the bulk of Karma is a partial inversion, with the same rhythm, as the main theme from ALS. My understanding from reading a few different things is that this was done on purpose, in deference to Coltrane, but I could be mistaken. So I've always forgiven the obvious parallels. And yes, I could also do without "Colors", if we are being honest. Leon Thomas is a fabulous vocalist, one of the few I enjoy, but in my opinion that track is not his finest moment. I have always loved the very beginning of "Village of the Pharoahs". It just drones angrily and grittily into your subconscious. Listen again every so often, I implore you! Yes, I agree that "Pharoah's first" may well be his best. I also don't have the original vinyl. A recent opportunity was cut short. Rats. I always took Thembi and Tauhid as different sides of the same coin, and I like them both. Michael White, the violinist, is a nice presence. So is Roy Haynes, good catch. The percussion is the draw for me. But yes, it is always good to go back and re-evaluate. I do this often, and I often am glad I did. Good on you for rising to the challenge. BTW, I might have the scoop on a couple of great ESP trio dates. Hoping they are still there when I go to grab them on Friday. |
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Post by clifford on Aug 9, 2017 20:36:45 GMT
Izipho Zam is one of Pharoah's best in my opinion. Tauhid is very good and a move toward Pharoah finding his own voice. The ESP is okay but I don't think it's anywhere near mature. He had a working band with Carla Bley, Charles Moffett, and Alan Shorter that would have been a gas to hear at the time. I'm not a huge Pharoah apologist but he's been plying his craft for longer than a lot of us have been alive, so...
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Post by sztiv on Aug 20, 2017 15:35:16 GMT
Am still away in Budapest and after a blessed week in Marrakesh with no internet have enjoyed reading the short Pharoah debate and lots of new listening recommendations.
I purchased my first Sanders LP Journey to the One from an old jazz retailer in New Shaftesbury Avenue London about 30 years ago, loved it and then never purchased another. I have no understanding of his touched by genius career with Coltrane. I jumped straight into Idris Muhammed and John Hicks in the 2nd half.
I've enjoyed Izipho Zam finding Leon Thomas' contribution much more to my liking than on the Impulse releases.
Hard not to admire a musician whose work is enjoyed by my son who comes home to see me and asks stuff like "Do you like Pharoah Sanders?" But the association with Coltrane was a bit of a double edged sword maybe? On the one hand everyone knew him but many only or mostly through this association. I've gone back and listened to the Coltrane recordings with Sanders like "At the Village Vanguard Again" but feel like I've gate crashed a party at 4am when everyone went home already because Coltrane was basically near the end and what he would write next we'll never know. I didn't grow up with John Coltrane that's for sure.
It doesn't really matter though does it? I mean how you end up liking what you like?
I'm also disappointed that the dottor isn't a fan but I'm not sure I'd like everything he does either.
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Post by sztiv on Sept 12, 2017 14:56:30 GMT
So after a long two day road trip across Western Europe, I'm finally back in Bristol. Once again many thanks to everyone for pointing me in the direction of post 1969 jazz. As well as the debate on the merits of Pharoah Sanders work as a frontman and the best albums from the Strata East catalogue, I found this post particularly helpful. - Stan Tracey was recording brilliantly ... - Cecil Taylor has been mentioned.... - Iain Ballamy's FOOD line-up .. - Steve Coleman, if you like that angular, mathematical Ornette-ish approach ... - You mention Geri Allen. The LP ETUDES with Motian and Haden on Soul Note is something of a classic. - Abdullah Ibrahim - Dave Holland's various line-ups - An excellent 1979 LP: Lennox Avenue Breakdown, Arthur Blythe - Old & New Dreams, - Anthony Braxton -- too numerous to mention and on more labels than you can shake a stick at.... - Marilyn Crispell: if you like free improv piano then Crispell is one of the under-rated giants of the form. - Mal Waldron, the piano giant is another artist who recorded quite prolifically throughout the period you mention, and on numerous labels. - Andrew Hill's 80s and 90s non-Blue Note records on Arista and Soul Note - Misha Mengelberg, Steve Lacy et al -- - Martial Solal - the great French pianist/improvisor and band leader.... I know ECM gets a lot of criticism and its particular blend of Nordic contemporary classical-meets-world-music isn't to everyone's taste, but the fact remains that the label has put out some essential jazz over the years. Again, there's a lot I wouldn't listen to (let alone buy) but Enrico Rava, Tomasz Stanko, Mark Turner and many more have produced excellent work for the label. Thank you so much Alun. I've just begun to explore some of the artists you mention. There's a vast quantity of recorded work here and much of it is affordable unlike the 50s & 60s era of BN, Impulse, Riverside etc. Abdullah Ibrahim I love and so it would seem does Pharoah Sanders who has recorded at least two of his songs that I know of. Moniebah from the 1989 Moon Child LP and a year later The Bird Song on Welcome To Love. I think these later 1980s and 90s LPs of Sanders are my favourites. Stan Tracey's later work I wasn't aware of, I only just found Jazz Suite a few weeks ago. Having been delighted by the two LPs that Archie Shepp recorded with Horace Parlan, I'm now intrigued to discover what Cecil Taylor sounded like more than 15years after he recorded The World Of Cecil Taylor, which is the only LP of his that I know. "As accessible as any" is a challenge I'm wiling to accept. The two mentions of Ornette Coleman will have me scurrying back to listen to my only Coleman LP before jumping into some selective Steve Coleman and Old and New Dreams. Muse and Cobblestone get plenty of good PR and love from the online jazz community but this Italian label Soul Note / Black Saint must surely be the next label to see some banana republic style price inflation. I already have 3 or 4 that I purchased without realising that this label represents a thick seam of music waiting to be mined. I just ordered the Geri Allen Etudes LP and David Murray's Ming to sit alongside Murray's Steps. Misha Mengelberg and friends Regeneration arrived whilst I was away and now you've also reminded me that another favourite, Andrew Hill also recorded for the label. So much good stuff here. |
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