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Post by Rich on Aug 20, 2016 17:27:25 GMT
i have a couple of the 33's... Not a 45 fan...whatever the sonic improvement may be its just a pain to put something on, take a sip of bourbon and then get back up and flip it over.... I had a couple of their 45s but later acquired early '80s Japanese Toshiba copies of those titles and got rid of the MM 45s. The Toshibas were quieter and I liked that they were single LPs. The only thing I miss about the MM copies are those brilliant photographs inside the gatefolds. Aside from the 45s I got rid of, I had a rather significant surface noise problem with one of the MM 33s I bought (http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/would-you-ask-for-a-return-for-this-record-audio-clip-included.494088/). I returned it and they exchanged it for a good one, but I ended up deciding that I liked the sound of my original better and got rid of the replacement. I do have two MM 33s in my collection right now though. One is Horace Parlan, Speaking My Piece (I may replace that with a Japanese copy at some point), the other is Blue Train, which would only ever get replaced with an original since it's mono and just about every other reissue of that album on the planet is stereo. I understand that Japanese Blue Notes are in all likelihood made from second-generation tapes but as far as the quality of the actual vinyl manufacturing, Japanese Blue Notes are unbelievably quiet on a consistent basis, from the Kings through the Toshibas, and I simply did not have that experience with Music Matters. The reprinting of the album art on the Kings is substandard but on the early Toshibas it's gorgeous, and if you're lucky you get one of the limited releases with the dimpled gloss.  With Music Matters, call me a purist but I actually don't like the way that the photos are sometimes too sharp i.e. too 'perfect' on their jackets, it's a significant departure from the photos on the original album covers, which have a higher contrast but are certainly still beautiful. And in the case of Lee Morgan's Candy, for example, MM didn't use the same photo as the original cover; it looks like it was the next shot Wolff might have taken in the photoshoot but Morgan's facial expression is slightly different. |
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 20, 2016 18:00:55 GMT
spencer: for sure.
bkphoto: i'm with you.
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Post by Spencer on Aug 20, 2016 18:06:55 GMT
That's interesting. I wonder whether MM simply feels it has done what it can, or has had enough, or can no longer extend the licensing deal -- or what? My best guess is that this was mostly a labor of love for the owners and without being very lucrative, they could only invest time, effort, and funds into it for so long, but that's just a guess. I heard the motivation behind the reissues were Ron Rambach and Joe Harley's desire to hear the master tapes. Labor of love certainly, and I don't think we can understand the legacy of these reissues for awhile. I don't kid myself that MM reissues will ever approach the prices of the originals, but I believe somewhere down the road the MMs will become sought after second to only the originals. |
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Post by Spencer on Aug 20, 2016 18:18:35 GMT
i have a couple of the 33's... Not a 45 fan...whatever the sonic improvement may be its just a pain to put something on, take a sip of bourbon and then get back up and flip it over.... I had a couple of their 45s but later acquired early '80s Japanese Toshiba copies of those titles and got rid of the MM 45s. The Toshibas were quieter and I liked that they were single LPs. The only thing I miss about the MM copies are those brilliant photographs inside the gatefolds. Aside from the 45s I got rid of, I had a rather significant surface noise problem with one of the MM 33s I bought (http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/would-you-ask-for-a-return-for-this-record-audio-clip-included.494088/). I returned it and they exchanged it for a good one, but I ended up deciding that I liked the sound of my original better and got rid of the replacement. I do have two MM 33s in my collection right now though. One is Horace Parlan, Speaking My Piece (I may replace that with a Japanese copy at some point), the other is Blue Train, which would only ever get replaced with an original since it's mono and just about every other reissue of that album on the planet is stereo. I understand that Japanese Blue Notes are in all likelihood made from second-generation tapes but as far as the quality of the actual vinyl manufacturing, Japanese Blue Notes are unbelievably quiet on a consistent basis, from the Kings through the Toshibas, and I simply did not have that experience with Music Matters. The reprinting of the album art on the Kings is substandard but on the early Toshibas it's gorgeous, and if you're lucky you get one of the limited releases with the dimpled gloss. With Music Matters, call me a purist but I actually don't like the way that the photos are sometimes too sharp i.e. too 'perfect' on their jackets, it's a significant departure from the photos on the original album covers, which have a higher contrast but are certainly still beautiful. And in the case of Lee Morgan's Candy, for example, MM didn't use the same photo as the original cover; it looks like it was the next shot Wolff might have taken in the photoshoot but Morgan's facial expression is slightly different. If MMs are so terrible why is there an embargo on them in Japan? Considering the fact that Japan is a free trade partner to the United States? Meanwhile the Japanese Disk Union and other reissues are sold in the U.S.? I will be glad if someone can tell me why, especially since Japan has the most passionate Blue Note fans in the world? |
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Post by bkphoto on Aug 20, 2016 19:22:31 GMT
my MM 33 of Grant Green Idle Moments has the crackles during the first song....never ended up replacing it...bummed me out...
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Post by SPENCER on Aug 20, 2016 19:50:16 GMT
Does anyone know if Blue Note originals were ever sealed with plastic like new records today are? I recently saw mint condition copies of Miles Davis' 10" records on Blue Note. The owner told me they were new but I honestly don't know if those were ever sealed like records are today?
Rich, any thoughts...
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Post by Spencer on Aug 20, 2016 20:01:22 GMT
my MM 33 of Grant Green Idle Moments has the crackles during the first song....never ended up replacing it...bummed me out... As much as I love MM, I won't lie, flipping 45s is a bit inconvenient. The slower pacing of the 33rpm reissues suits me well and overrides the sonic advantages of a 45. As I understand there was a brief period where RTI was having issues with some of their pressings. All that was eventually traced to their boiler which has since been replaced. |
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Post by Rich on Aug 20, 2016 20:04:37 GMT
I had a couple of their 45s but later acquired early '80s Japanese Toshiba copies of those titles and got rid of the MM 45s. The Toshibas were quieter and I liked that they were single LPs. The only thing I miss about the MM copies are those brilliant photographs inside the gatefolds. Aside from the 45s I got rid of, I had a rather significant surface noise problem with one of the MM 33s I bought (http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/would-you-ask-for-a-return-for-this-record-audio-clip-included.494088/). I returned it and they exchanged it for a good one, but I ended up deciding that I liked the sound of my original better and got rid of the replacement. I do have two MM 33s in my collection right now though. One is Horace Parlan, Speaking My Piece (I may replace that with a Japanese copy at some point), the other is Blue Train, which would only ever get replaced with an original since it's mono and just about every other reissue of that album on the planet is stereo. I understand that Japanese Blue Notes are in all likelihood made from second-generation tapes but as far as the quality of the actual vinyl manufacturing, Japanese Blue Notes are unbelievably quiet on a consistent basis, from the Kings through the Toshibas, and I simply did not have that experience with Music Matters. The reprinting of the album art on the Kings is substandard but on the early Toshibas it's gorgeous, and if you're lucky you get one of the limited releases with the dimpled gloss. With Music Matters, call me a purist but I actually don't like the way that the photos are sometimes too sharp i.e. too 'perfect' on their jackets, it's a significant departure from the photos on the original album covers, which have a higher contrast but are certainly still beautiful. And in the case of Lee Morgan's Candy, for example, MM didn't use the same photo as the original cover; it looks like it was the next shot Wolff might have taken in the photoshoot but Morgan's facial expression is slightly different. If MMs are so terrible why is there an embargo on them in Japan? Considering the fact that Japan is a free trade partner to the United States? Meanwhile the Japanese Disk Union and other reissues are sold in the U.S.? I will be glad if someone can tell me why, especially since Japan has the most passionate Blue Note fans in the world? I'm having a hard time understanding why you reduced my analysis of the MM reissues to the word 'terrible'. I don't think they're terrible. I just think the quality of the vinyl manufacturing isn't at the level of the Japanese Blue Notes--probably the most important factor for me--and I prefer the reproduction of the artwork on the early '80s Toshibas. I also just so happen to often prefer the bold sound of originals to any reissue--again, this doesn't mean I think all reissues are 'terrible'. I'm also confused by your embargo comment. If no Japanese retailers are carrying MM reissues, are you suggesting that it's because they're afraid the MM reissues will outsell the Disk Union reissues? Regardless of how proud Japanese retailers may or may not be, the Japanese reissues I'm talking about (King and Toshiba) are all out of print; I'm not talking about the current Disk Union reissues, mainly because those are made in the US just like the MM reissues. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any US retailers who have ever sold the Disk Union LPs. But if everything you're saying about the retail sale of MM and DU LPs in the US and Japan is true, does this suggest that American retailers are in some way less proud than Japanese retailers and thus that American retailers are more fair or something? Your point comes across to me as sarcastic and I'd appreciate it if you were more forward if only for the sake of my understanding it. I hope I haven't offended you with my analysis, Spencer. I'd like to believe that we can voice each other's experiences and opinions with each other even if they're different. After all, you did tell me that you didn't want this thread to be renamed "The Music Matters Appreciation Thread", so I think we should be able to compare various Blue Note pressings here without worrying if our preferences will offend anyone. |
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Post by Rich on Aug 20, 2016 20:09:27 GMT
My best guess is that this was mostly a labor of love for the owners and without being very lucrative, they could only invest time, effort, and funds into it for so long, but that's just a guess. I heard the motivation behind the reissues were Ron Rambach and Joe Harley's desire to hear the master tapes. Labor of love certainly, and I don't think we can understand the legacy of these reissues for awhile. I don't kid myself that MM reissues will ever approach the prices of the originals, but I believe somewhere down the road the MMs will become sought after second to only the originals.Well, they have almost unanimously been praised by audiophiles here in the US, so that does seem like a strong possibility--for the titles they released. Japan's reissue program in the '70s and '80s was more extensive of course. |
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Post by Rich on Aug 20, 2016 20:18:06 GMT
By the way: for quite some time I dismissed the Music Matters program without ever having owned any of their LPs simply because I felt their philosophy and vision for the program was 'missing the point'. But I decided that was unfair, and that I should see what all the fuss was about, so I bought a few. I think I can be very fair and unbiased in my assessments (not entirely, but to a great extent), and I just do not prefer them, and I'm glad I can say that with the confidence of having actually owned them.
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Post by Rich on Aug 20, 2016 20:32:17 GMT
Does anyone know if Blue Note originals were ever sealed with plastic like new records today are? I recently saw mint condition copies of Miles Davis' 10" records on Blue Note. The owner told me they were new but I honestly don't know if those were ever sealed like records are today? Rich, any thoughts... Where did you see the Miles ten inches? Are they sealed? I'm pretty sure those album were part of the UMG 75th Anniversary reissue program from a few years back, and they would have been done as ten inches too...? IIRC the earliest LPs (10" and 12") had no protection; they just came as is with the actual record inside a rice paper sleeve inside the jacket. But soon after 12" LPs because popular in the mid-fifties, I think they started putting loose-fitting plastic baggies over each record...IIRC I heard this from Al Perlman, who runs JazzCollector.com. |
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Post by Spencer on Aug 21, 2016 12:34:11 GMT
Does anyone know if Blue Note originals were ever sealed with plastic like new records today are? I recently saw mint condition copies of Miles Davis' 10" records on Blue Note. The owner told me they were new but I honestly don't know if those were ever sealed like records are today? Rich, any thoughts... Where did you see the Miles ten inches? Are they sealed? I'm pretty sure those album were part of the UMG 75th Anniversary reissue program from a few years back, and they would have been done as ten inches too...? IIRC the earliest LPs (10" and 12") had no protection; they just came as is with the actual record inside a rice paper sleeve inside the jacket. But soon after 12" LPs because popular in the mid-fifties, I think they started putting loose-fitting plastic baggies over each record...IIRC I heard this from Al Perlman, who runs JazzCollector.com. Believe me they were not reissues. The owner has no reissues in the house. Despite all my readings here at LJC and vociferous opinions I still consider myself a Blue Note novice, but I assure you one I have gotten a knack for is differentiating between original Jazz LPs and modern reissues from any period. When you hold an original in your hands you can feel the weight of time on it: the covers feel different and the vinyl has a texture from a by-gone era. I was shown mint condition copies of the two Miles Davis 10" and mint condition copies of Mobley's Message and 2nd Message. I nearly wept at the sight of such beautiful copies. The only thing modern about these were the generic inner sleeve they were kept in. I found b&w photo of Commodore records, the first record store to start selling BN 10" and as you say, in the photos I noticed rows and rows of of 10" (not necessarily BN) on the shelves but they don't seem to have any plastic wrappings. It even appears from the photos that the records are tucked into paper bags for buyers |
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Post by Spencer on Aug 21, 2016 13:40:31 GMT
If MMs are so terrible why is there an embargo on them in Japan? Considering the fact that Japan is a free trade partner to the United States? Meanwhile the Japanese Disk Union and other reissues are sold in the U.S.? I will be glad if someone can tell me why, especially since Japan has the most passionate Blue Note fans in the world? I'm having a hard time understanding why you reduced my analysis of the MM reissues to the word 'terrible'. I don't think they're terrible. I just think the quality of the vinyl manufacturing isn't at the level of the Japanese Blue Notes--probably the most important factor for me--and I prefer the reproduction of the artwork on the early '80s Toshibas. I also just so happen to often prefer the bold sound of originals to any reissue--again, this doesn't mean I think all reissues are 'terrible'. I'm also confused by your embargo comment. If no Japanese retailers are carrying MM reissues, are you suggesting that it's because they're afraid the MM reissues will outsell the Disk Union reissues? Regardless of how proud Japanese retailers may or may not be, the Japanese reissues I'm talking about (King and Toshiba) are all out of print; I'm not talking about the current Disk Union reissues, mainly because those are made in the US just like the MM reissues. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any US retailers who have ever sold the Disk Union LPs. But if everything you're saying about the retail sale of MM and DU LPs in the US and Japan is true, does this suggest that American retailers are in some way less proud than Japanese retailers and thus that American retailers are more fair or something? Your point comes across to me as sarcastic and I'd appreciate it if you were more forward if only for the sake of my understanding it. I hope I haven't offended you with my analysis, Spencer. I'd like to believe that we can voice each other's experiences and opinions with each other even if they're different. After all, you did tell me that you didn't want this thread to be renamed "The Music Matters Appreciation Thread", so I think we should be able to compare various Blue Note pressings here without worrying if our preferences will offend anyone. 1. I agreed with your original analysis 2. I was in a roundabout way trying to comment on your mention of the sourcing of Japanese BN reissues. It's always better to follow a straight line> 3. It would appear that BN and the reissue entities in Japan have embargoed the distribution of MM in the Japanese market. I don't hold an MBA degree from Harvard but I have enough sense to know that when restriction is placed on the importation of a specific goods like this it because there is a "competition clause" in effect. Now from where I stand if you are excluding your competition from a market place it is usually because you are weary of your competitor. In the case of Japanese reissuers of BN, excluding MM makes sense, they are starting out with copies of copies of tapes and they don't have access to the treasure troves of bonus materials like MM can. So yeah I'm saying MM is kept out of the Japanese market because the Japanese reissuers do not want to competition. Ironically BN is now owned by a Japanese conglomerate 4. On top of making quiet vinyl the Japanese are second to no one when it comes to cartridges. The best cartridges in the world are made in Japan 5. One of the things anyone outside the U.S. paying attention to this year's Presidential race may fail to appreciate is how Donald Trump's comments on global trade is largely agreeable to Americans on the left and right of the political spectrum. I will never vote for Trump but I do agree with him on trade. Yes I'm saying the American market place is more fair to foreign competition. |
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 21, 2016 16:06:03 GMT
here we go again!
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Post by Rich on Aug 22, 2016 5:10:33 GMT
Where did you see the Miles ten inches? Are they sealed? I'm pretty sure those album were part of the UMG 75th Anniversary reissue program from a few years back, and they would have been done as ten inches too...? IIRC the earliest LPs (10" and 12") had no protection; they just came as is with the actual record inside a rice paper sleeve inside the jacket. But soon after 12" LPs because popular in the mid-fifties, I think they started putting loose-fitting plastic baggies over each record...IIRC I heard this from Al Perlman, who runs JazzCollector.com. Believe me they were not reissues. The owner has no reissues in the house. Despite all my readings here at LJC and vociferous opinions I still consider myself a Blue Note novice, but I assure you one I have gotten a knack for is differentiating between original Jazz LPs and modern reissues from any period. When you hold an original in your hands you can feel the weight of time on it: the covers feel different and the vinyl has a texture from a by-gone era. I was shown mint condition copies of the two Miles Davis 10" and mint condition copies of Mobley's Message and 2nd Message. I nearly wept at the sight of such beautiful copies. The only thing modern about these were the generic inner sleeve they were kept in. I found b&w photo of Commodore records, the first record store to start selling BN 10" and as you say, in the photos I noticed rows and rows of of 10" (not necessarily BN) on the shelves but they don't seem to have any plastic wrappings. It even appears from the photos that the records are tucked into paper bags for buyers Spencer, I assume we can all distinguish between originals and reissues in person; it just sounded like you found out about these online or over the phone or something. |
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With Music Matters, call me a purist but I actually don't like the way that the photos are sometimes too sharp i.e. too 'perfect' on their jackets, it's a significant departure from the photos on the original album covers, which have a higher contrast but are certainly still beautiful. And in the case of Lee Morgan's Candy, for example, MM didn't use the same photo as the original cover; it looks like it was the next shot Wolff might have taken in the photoshoot but Morgan's facial expression is slightly different.
