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Post by bassman on Aug 4, 2022 13:41:00 GMT
It was around the time "Miles Smiles" was released, and Ron Carter was my hero. I picked up this LP (mind you: tracks 8-14 in this playlist, and it's not "live" either - I wonder why this BS keeps happening again and again) in a record store because I thought Ron would guarantee quality. I liked the basic concept of this music, but something obviously had gone wrong. It's about the rhythm mainly, Carter notwithstanding. It just sounds kind of unprofessional.
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nX10oqBCFRjDe3wn6bhn6GL_3QBET-jCc
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 4, 2022 14:10:05 GMT
Interesting take. I was previously unfamiliar, but I actually love it! "Satan Said" is the track I listened to, and I hear a little bit of Ornette Coleman meets early bebop in playing fast and loose with note clarity and tempo. I will be seeking this out. That said, I can see why it might not appeal to everyone.
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Post by bassman on Aug 4, 2022 15:23:42 GMT
Interesting take. I was previously unfamiliar, but I actually love it! "Satan Said" is the track I listened to, and I hear a little bit of Ornette Coleman meets early bebop in playing fast and loose with note clarity and tempo. I will be seeking this out. That said, I can see why it might not appeal to everyone. You will understand if you listen to the whole record. (Ornette swings.)
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Post by bassman on Aug 5, 2022 10:51:04 GMT
More about Charles Bell: sites.google.com/site/pittsburghmusichistory/pittsburgh-music-story/jazz/modern-era/charles-bellWhat I like about "Another Dimension" is Charles Bell's inventiveness as a composer. But we shouldn't be mistaken: This is not avant-garde music of the day. Both rhythmically and structurally, it follows the conventions of some "modern" jazz of the fifties, especially Teddy Charles and the like. Played more perfectly, it would have made for a thoroughly enjoyable album. Let's just listen to this again: I find the theme very appealing, and the interplay between piano and guitar quite interesting, but if you decide to play this kind of music (which is rather conservative in terms of rhythm and structure) or any "jazz" music, for that matter, you must have a rhythm section that works. Ron Carter and Allen Blairman are never together, and guess who I blame for it. The longer it lasts, the more it sounds like a poorly rehearsed amateur group. To me, the album is no more than a somewhat strange collector's item.
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 5, 2022 13:48:54 GMT
I did listen to the whole record. I like it. We might like different things from time to time, my friend. This is not objective.
Sounds to me in "Bass Line" that Ron is playing the bass line equivalent of inversions, which would potentially make it feel as though there was a one beat offset between bass and drums. Again, I enjoy it.
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Post by bassman on Aug 5, 2022 14:39:27 GMT
I did listen to the whole record. I like it. We might like different things from time to time, my friend. This is not objective. Sounds to me in "Bass Line" that Ron is playing the bass line equivalent of inversions, which would potentially make it feel as though there was a one beat offset between bass and drums. Again, I enjoy it. Glad you like it. There's some aspects of it I like as well.
You put it very kindly ("a one beat offset between bass and drums") ... I'd put it more rudely and say it swings like a sack o' potatoes. But then again, I like the themes and I like some of the soloing, unless the guitarist gets kicked out of tempo by the drummer when trading fours. Again: This is music, basically, in a strict meter, but it lacks much of the precision required for such music. My view is that this was not the artists' intention, but YMMV.
Anyway, good to know this album caught your attention. Be sure to get hold of a stereo version, because the mono I have is in pretty poor sound.
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Post by Doom Girl on Aug 5, 2022 18:01:40 GMT
I found the "Bass Line" track quite enjoyable, even "foot-tapping" in fact. So we find, perhaps, that "swing" is in the ear of the behearer (ty, Dewey Redman). LOL, "your mileage may vary."
This also resurrected some ancient memories. I dug through my memorabilia, and found that I had indeed, many many years ago, heard the "Charlie Bell Ensemble" in concert - in a program billed as "Jazz for a Young Audience." This was the heyday of "The Third Stream" and the concert also featured performance of a piece by Gunther Schuller. I was impressed by Bell's playing but I don't think his performance was a hit with the audience. But then he was in the unenviable position of preceding the extremely popular Dave Brubeck Quartet, with Paul Desmond (who was fantastic!). This was perhaps akin to being at a Spring Break concert in Alabama and opening for Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Bell was an interesting figure in jazz history. As described in the piece cited above, he was a sort of "discovery" or "protege" of Brubeck. He was regarded highly for a time - his first album received 5 stars in Down Beat - but veered into the academic realm, teaching and composing. The reference to Ornette is quite apropos - Bell's son recalls Coleman jamming with his Dad in their living room at room.
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Post by bassman on Aug 6, 2022 6:58:15 GMT
I found the "Bass Line" track quite enjoyable, even "foot-tapping" in fact. So we find, perhaps, that "swing" is in the ear of the behearer (ty, Dewey Redman). LOL, "your mileage may vary." [ ... ] I actually want to wrap this up because "this is not objective", as Gregory said. A good argument which cannot be applied universally though - especially in matters of craftsmanship. Oh yes, there was some foot-tapping on my side too, all through the theme (and most of the other themes) and for some of the choruses. BECAUSE Bell sounds good, the guitar player mostly sounds good, Carter is trying to do his best, ... - ? All said.
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Post by bassman on Aug 6, 2022 11:13:17 GMT
Pardon me folks ... I've been trying to prove to myself that I was wrong in my evaluation of "Another Dimension". No way. If you take "Satan Said" - by itself a wonderfully conceived piece - you must face the fact that the drummer is completely out of sync with the rest of the band during the solo choruses. And I could go on and on, but I won't because I don't want to bore anybody here. I can hear them shouting : "Hey bassman, you moron, don't you know what swing is? Nothing to do with precision, all subjective, all feeling, forget about music theory" etc. etc. Don't be afraid, I'm not going to offer any scientific theories here, just two things: Foot-tapping doesn't prove you can feel the swing. You can watch any old Alpine brass band tapping their feet like mad when they are playing on a bandstand. And secondly: One unfailing proof you're NOT feeling the swing is when you clap hands on one and three while listening to jazz. That's what German-born Alfred Lion did, BTW, causing musicians to chuckle behind his back. But did they love him! Let's be grateful for what he has left to us.
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Post by bassman on Aug 7, 2022 11:36:42 GMT
This is not a treatise, nor is it intended to be the first in a series of posts or such. It simply is my take on one particular phenomenon. Two, in fact, which seem to be rooted in the same principle.
I am trying to keep it short, so this will not deal with all the aspects of jazz rhythm. For the time being, I am leaving it to others to elaborate on such subtle questions as "Is there any swing in Free Jazz?" or the intricacies of Tony Williams' "rubberband" timing ... (Man, didn't he swing!)
In a more general way, Wikipedia offers all the basic insights. Nothing new here, but anyway:
Now here is my take. What is not really understood, I think, is the function of one of the most common characteristics of "swinging" music, eighth note anticipation. If you want a straight melody to sound jazz-like, you will inevitably place some of its notes earlier than expected - one eighth note earlier in most cases. It is a common misunderstanding that jazz syncopation is just randomly "breaking up the rhythm". No. It's always anticipation. (Some may disagree. Examples welcome. I will disprove them all.) Anticipation creates the feeling of being constantly pulled forward by some irresistible force yet in the end falling back precisely on the beat, so you never give up the steady pace, never give up your "time". If you were to do this, the rhythm would instantly fall apart. There are, of course, players who prefer straight eighth-note strings to syncopated phrases for most of the time. The other characteristic found in many jazz players from Armstrong to Zorn is relaxed playing. Putting all your phrases (including your anticipated notes) a tiny fraction behind the beat. We all know that's how Wynton Kelly created his magic. Why this laid-back playing? Well - again it's this irresistible force that's pulling you forward, a force you try to resist by slightly leaning back. Irresistible force? Irresistible drive? Think of the original meaning of the word "jazz". Jazz as an expression of the most human feelings. Basic instincts, as the enemies of the music have always argued. This, of course, is not the whole story of jazz. But it's the story of eighth notes and relaxation.
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Post by gregorythefish on Aug 7, 2022 22:24:35 GMT
Controversial opinion: swing, by and large, is nonsense. It's a concept that is outdated, and was so by the 60's.
Case in point: Latin jazz. Straight eighths.
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Post by bassman on Aug 8, 2022 6:06:05 GMT
Controversial opinion: swing, by and large, is nonsense. It's a concept that is outdated, and was so by the 60's. Case in point: Latin jazz. Straight eighths. Gregory, these two websites are dealing with outdated jazz by definition: "[...] modern jazz: the classical music of America from the Fifties and Sixties, and a little Seventies, on original vinyl [...]" - the Seventies having been added a long time after the start.
Latin jazz? Probably more anticipated eighths than anywhere else! Look at Desafinado, which even starts on an AE.
Straight eighths? Played in a particular way (e.g. laid-back or with the accent on the second eighth out of two, respectively), they're just another way to swing. But there isn't any jazz style that's made up from straight eighths in its entirety, is there?
Let's put it this way: My post was about that particular kind of GROOVE that we have come to call SWING. Trying to interpret me in any different way would be nonsense, and unfair.
There is some kind of groove to be found in most of this planet's music. Except classical .
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dg
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by dg on Aug 10, 2022 18:12:10 GMT
…a remarkable document…simply beautiful — and all for an audience of one! …unbelievable!
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Post by bassman on Aug 10, 2022 19:42:20 GMT
…a remarkable document…simply beautiful — and all for an audience of one! …unbelievable! [ ... ] I think it's effing amazing. The Sound Of It! Amen. Thanks for posting.
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Post by bassman on May 28, 2023 15:13:46 GMT
Frank Butler's FlukeA specific double time "device" occasionally applied by drummer Frank Butler first caught my attention when I heard him on "Seven Steps to Heaven" (the track is "Baby Won't You Please Come Home"). When changing into double time at the beginning of Victor Feldman's solo, he keeps up the accent on the original "two" and "four", which now turn into a "three", respectively. A "three" not being stressed in regular 4/4 jazz, the effect is a strangely appealing one. No big deal, but seldom heard, and particularly effective with Feldman's laid back style. Listen from 4:35 to 5:14. To me, this passage will be forever connected with the "Seven Steps" album. Perhaps just a fluke, but absolutely bang up to the moment. It wasn't the first time Butler (who, perhaps, doesn't even rank among jazz's foremost drummers) had been using this device (see second example below, 7:00 ff.). But applying it at the right time in the presence of genius is quite an achievement.
(Second example:)
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