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Post by jazzhead on Jul 27, 2022 17:52:35 GMT
This is pretty bloody interesting! "To mark the 65th anniversary of the album’s recording, Blue Train will be released in two special editions on September 16 as part of Blue Note’s acclaimed Tone Poet Audiophile Vinyl Reissue Series. A 1-LP mono pressing of the original album will be presented in a deluxe gatefold tip-on jacket, while the 2-LP stereo collection Blue Train: The Complete Masters will include a second disc featuring seven alternate and incomplete takes, none of which have been released previously on vinyl, and four of which have never been released before on any format. The Complete Masters comes with a booklet featuring never-before-seen session photos by Francis Wolff and an essay by Coltrane expert Ashley Kahn. Both Tone Poet Vinyl Editions were produced by Joe Harley, mastered by Kevin Gray from the original analog master tapes, and pressed on 180g vinyl at RTI. Blue Train: The Complete Masters will also be released as a 2-CD set and digital collection." Side C Blue Train false start * – 0:21 Blue Train alternate take 7 * – 7:09 Moment’s Notice alternate take 4 * – 7:19 Side D Lazy Bird alternate take 1 – 9:22 Blue Train alternate take 8 – 10:27 Moment’s Notice alternate take 5A (incomplete) * – 5:08 Lazy Bird alternate take 2 – 7:29 *previously unreleased www.bluenote.com/john-coltrane-blue-train-tone-poet-vinyl/
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Post by jazzhead on Jul 29, 2022 18:26:56 GMT
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Post by bassman on Jul 30, 2022 12:33:35 GMT
Having listened to parts of the video, I am still at a loss whether the vinyl version is AAA. Maybe it just escaped me. Blue Note store says "from the original analog master tapes", which means very little. I'm just asking - I certainly won't buy it.
In digital format, though, it does rouse my interest. Nothing can be closer to the original than a digital file drawn from the original master tape.
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Post by jazzhead on Jul 30, 2022 12:55:42 GMT
Having listened to parts of the video, I am still at a loss whether the vinyl version is AAA. Maybe it just escaped me. Blue Note store says "from the original analog master tapes", which means very little. I'm just asking - I certainly won't buy it.
In digital format, though, it does rouse my interest. Nothing can be closer to the original than a digital file drawn from the original master tape.
Skip to 44:30, bassman. Michael asks Joe about the quantity being produced. His reply is a "shitload". They then discuss the analogue/digital procedure. If Blue Note are getting a "shitload" pressed, then how does that affect the master tape(s)? Surprised Michael didn't ask them that. "As durable as classic, well-cared-for analog masters can be, they can get worn out, especially if they're of popular titles. In the analog era, master tapes also were used to make “safety copies,” for remastering, reissues and other purposes. Engineers weren't yet able to make a digital copy to work from, so most tasks involved running tapes on a machine, which results in wear." www.laweekly.com/master-recordings-from-abbey-road-to-born-to-run-could-be-lost-forever-without-archivists-help/So, are they really using the "original master tapes" for this Blue Train reissue or are they using safety copies?
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Post by jazzhead on Jul 30, 2022 14:45:05 GMT
Just had a look on iTunes and Blue Train The Complete Masters comes with the stereo, alternate takes and the mono version. Pretty good for £12.99.
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Post by bassman on Jul 30, 2022 15:50:40 GMT
Just had a look on iTunes and Blue Train The Complete Masters comes with the stereo, alternate takes and the mono version. Pretty good for £12.99. Thanks for the info, Jazzhead. BTW it can now be pre-ordered on Amazon, too, at roughly the same price.
Concerning analog/digital (is a shitload more than a shipload? who knows... )
I don't believe a word of what they're saying, and the way they respond - they are so cautious about signal paths and things ... and as you're saying, using the master tapes instead of backup tapes would be insane for various reasons (additional work, tape wear ...), and using analog backup tapes would be just as insane (more tape hiss, more wow & flutter ... this is not the way to do it in 2022). I'm absolutely certain the analog masters are cut from digital.
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 10, 2022 0:58:37 GMT
We can now pre-order on Amazon. For a while it was saying out of stock.
This still isn't explicit enough:
"...mastered by Kevin Gray from the original analog master tapes,.."
It could just mean that the original analog master tapes were digitized. Why "from" and not 'using'? Or, better yet, 'mastered by Kevin Gray using only the original analog master tapes'.
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Post by bassman on Aug 10, 2022 14:15:53 GMT
We can now pre-order on Amazon. For a while it was saying out of stock. This still isn't explicit enough: "...mastered by Kevin Gray from the original analog master tapes,.." It could just mean that the original analog master tapes were digitized. Why "from" and not 'using'? Or, better yet, 'mastered by Kevin Gray using only the original analog master tapes'. Digital mastering, beyond any doubt. Always has been. Vinyl for the asking. Premium quality, no doubt, most likely *far* better than in the days when they were working with wow & flutter technology. I mean it, folks.
In this context let me just, for one last instance, return to MoFi and their description of the technology they're using:
"The GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system is comprised of a Studer™ tape machine with customized reproduction electronics and handcrafted cutting amps that drive a Neumann SX74 cutting head on a restored Neumann VMS-70 lathe."
A Studer tape machine. ONE tape machine. How can you possibly do any of the necessary editing on ONE tape machine? They were creating an illusion of cutting the lacquer directly from the Studer. How utterly, side-splittingly ridiculous! We know the truth now.
.... BREAKING NEWS .... Immediately after I was able to copy & paste my quote, MoFi announced this:
"Opening soon... A new MOFI.com is coming very soon to give our customers a better shopping experience... "
AD MULTOS ANNOS!
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dg
Full Member
Posts: 124
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Post by dg on Aug 10, 2022 17:33:23 GMT
We can now pre-order on Amazon. For a while it was saying out of stock. This still isn't explicit enough: "...mastered by Kevin Gray from the original analog master tapes,.."........ .... BREAKING NEWS .... Immediately after I was able to copy & paste my quote, MoFi announced this:
"Opening soon... A new MOFI.com is coming very soon to give our customers a better shopping experience... "
AD MULTOS ANNOS! Ad multos annos (English: For many more years) is a Latin acclamation for celebrations, and also a hymn used in the rites of the Orthodox and Catholic churches. In a ceremonial similar to that of the Laudes Regiæ or Carolingian Litany, the bishop at his ordination would acclaim his consecrator in order to thank him. In three stages, the bishop would advance toward his consecrator, perform three genuflections, and sing three times giving his voice each time a higher pitch, the acclamation: Ad multos annos! — no doubt "...mastered by Kevin Gray from the original analog master tape”
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 12, 2022 17:06:22 GMT
Just watched this. Still not convinced.
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Post by bassman on Aug 12, 2022 19:49:30 GMT
Just watched this. Still not convinced. [ ... video ... ] Still not convinced? You were looking for the wrong thing. It says absolutely nothing about what goes on before the lacquer is cut. Absolutely fascinating video, beautiful vinyl, but "the sound of silence" concerning the origin of those acoustic waves. I'm sure some of our friends can smell the bits and bytes. Or can they?
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 13, 2022 14:31:27 GMT
Just watched this. Still not convinced. [ ... video ... ] Still not convinced? You were looking for the wrong thing. It says absolutely nothing about what goes on before the lacquer is cut. Absolutely fascinating video, beautiful vinyl, but "the sound of silence" concerning the origin of those acoustic waves. I'm sure some of our friends can smell the bits and bytes. Or can they? Well, they did give us, I don't know, half a second of footage where a tape was turning. No idea what was on the tape.
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Post by bassman on Aug 13, 2022 17:41:30 GMT
On Sep. 19, 2019 one Tim1954 wrote on the Hoffman forum:
"Sounds extreme to me but not everyone is as sensitive to flutter as others. 6 of 12 AAA pressings ( we don’t count the two digital recordings) in the Tone Poet series have flutter. And in most cases it has not turned up on any prior pressing."
Would any studio in 2022 risk flutter by strictly keeping to some "orthodox" AAA rules, especially when you have a meticulously crafted, technically perfect digital master to draw on? Doing the same job one more time, this time all analog, means an incredible amount of extra work - with doubtful results. I really don't know. On May 22, 2013, Joe Harley himself wrote this on the LJC website:
"[ ... ] I recall vividly our astonishment as we listened to the master tape of Horace Parlan’s Speakin’ My Piece. After loving the original LP for so many years, we were astounded by how much better the master sounded. It was like getting in a sonic time capsule back to that July 14, 1960 session at Rudy’s!
That experience has been repeated now well over 100 times in the ensuing years. As great as those original issues are (and there IS something very special about holding the original … we totally get it) I can state without the slightest hesitation that what we offer on our 45 RPM editions gets you much closer to the sound of the master tape. And for us, that’s our sonic grail. We want to, as best we can, go back in time to hear what Rudy put to tape that day in the studio, whether Hackensack or Englewood Cliffs.
These are fun discussions because there is no right or wrong approach. If your goal is to have the original issue in your hands then by all means, enjoy! I know a few folks who have even put their gear together using vintage components in order to actually voice their system to the records.
I say go for it! The idea, after all, is to let the music created by these geniuses sweep you away and forget the mundane day to day. Whichever approach does that best for a particular listener is right for him/her. [ ... ]" Trying to read between the lines, I am asking myself: What is the best, nay, the only, way to get the sound of the master tape? Wow and flutter technology?
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Post by Admin on Aug 13, 2022 18:27:29 GMT
Hi, boss here. I just don't get this alt takes, out takes and false starts business. Surely you just want the final release candidate, which the artists were happy with. I have three pressings of Blue Train and don't feel need of any more. I can't think of any reason to add this to my shelf, especially takes the artists discarded. There is a lot more exciting music elsewhere waiting to be discovered.
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 15, 2022 14:03:34 GMT
Hi, boss here. I just don't get this alt takes, out takes and false starts business. Surely you just want the final release candidate, which the artists were happy with. I have three pressings of Blue Train and don't feel need of any more. I can't think of any reason to add this to my shelf, especially takes the artists discarded. There is a lot more exciting music elsewhere waiting to be discovered. Well, I'm getting it. What I don't get is, why don't they just release all the takes? Included is a Take 7, Take 4, Take 1, Take 8, Take 5A and a Take 2. So the title, The Complete Masters, is a misnomer. This isn't The Complete Masters. Unless the other takes are lost? If so, they'll probably turn up on the 70th anniversary!
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