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Post by alunsevern on Sept 15, 2021 7:54:26 GMT
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Post by bassman on Sept 15, 2021 8:27:21 GMT
‘It didn’t adhere to any of the rules.’ It probably didn't. But it did, ideally, adhere to certain standards - of musicianship, of a certain inner logic, etc., though the criteria by which to "judge" free music might be more difficult to find. BTW - do you, or anyone in the forum, recall any "free" performance that you found really meagre or deficient? Why exactly?
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 15, 2021 8:41:23 GMT
Hmm... I can think of plenty of *types* of free jazz/free music that don't particularly appeal to me, and I can think of free jazz recordings that don't seem to work very well. Too noisy, too undisciplined, too loud, too little communication between the players, too much 'showmanship', too much reliance on empty gesture, too bombastic... But these are all rather subjective judgements, aren't they, and make me think that while the reasons may be harder to articulate, the reasons why some free jazz may be 'meagre' or 'deficient' are as varied and as subjective as those that describe *any* music that fails to please us. An interesting question, bassman.
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 15, 2021 14:46:28 GMT
I like your response, alun. And I agree. Free jazz is not distinct from other music. It feels distinct, but it really isn't. All music exists on a planned-unplanned spectrum, and within a set of either spoken or understood rules. And we like it or dislike it for the same reasons that we like or dislike any other kind of music. Many people dislike free jazz for stupid reasons: they don't understand how challenging it can be to play, and/or they just want to hear a catchy melody. many dislike it for good reasons: they find it valid but simply personally unappealing.
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Post by Doom Girl on Sept 15, 2021 18:50:07 GMT
Thank you Alunsevern, "Fire Music..." is a documentary I'll look forward to seeing, hearing. Thus inspired, I took out my copy of Archie Shepp’s wonderful 1965 Impulse recording FIRE MUSIC for a re-listen after many years. This is one of those early Impulse beauties, with a laminated gatefold cover that shows an abstract painting in luscious reds by Mel Cheren. Though the music is unusual, at the time definitely considered a part of the “avant-garde,” I would hesitate to call it “free jazz” - it is mapped out and arranged to the hilt, much of it being chordal and riff-based in nature: to paraphrase LeRoi Jones’ note on the back cover…Shepp’s “range of expression is so broad…(with)…specific schools having really not much to do with it.” That is, “it’s all just music, man.”
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 16, 2021 7:25:26 GMT
Last night I was reading Duncan Heining's sleeve notes to the new Jazz in Britain release, Revisiting Tanglewood 63: The Early Tapes: Mike Gibbs (I haven't played it yet). In considering how music moves us or prompts emotions he makes the point that Stravinsky insisted that music does nothing but describe the notes set down on the musical stave. I'm not sure that even Igor believed that, and the point is only made in order to disprove it, Heining going on to say that Gibbs' music has emotion in abundance. Anyway, this made me think about the free jazz discussion here... Perhaps all we can ask of free jazz (or free music, or free improv or the avant-garde or whatever) is: does it succeed (whatever 'succeed' may mean to us) within the terms of its own conventions?
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 16, 2021 15:27:20 GMT
I find the notion that free jazz doesn't follow rules to be fairly intellectually bankrupt. It definitely showed how some rules could be discarded successfully. But a lot of the jazz improvising tradition is simply: can you play what you would sing?
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Post by bassman on Sept 16, 2021 18:48:04 GMT
I find the notion that free jazz doesn't follow rules to be fairly intellectually bankrupt. It definitely showed how some rules could be discarded successfully. But a lot of the jazz improvising tradition is simply: can you play what you would sing? When, ages ago, I first heard Ornette's strangely off-key yet somehow bluesy intonation, paired with his disregard of harmonic structure (even in relation to his own themes, with their remote semblance of conventional songs), my reaction was like: "Though this be madness, yet there is method in 't." He had stripped jazz almost entirely of its "Great (or less great) American Songbook" connotations, reducing it to what seemed to me "pure" jazz at the time. Strangely enough, though I was in two minds about electric Miles ten years later, some of is efforts evoked the same feeling. "Sanctuary" - soul music without a trace of soul phrasing or soul chords, as it were. (I know this is a controversial statement.)
No matter if it's free jazz or jazz at large or any other kind of music, my own personal and very subjective yardstick is like: Is he (or she) able to convey what they want to convey? It's very subjective because I never know beyond doubt what their intended message is. But I can feel it.
So, yes, "can you play what you would sing?" seems another useful criterion. It's the opposite of the kind of "etude" playing that plagues so many conservatory-trained youngsters these days.
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Post by Doom Girl on Sept 16, 2021 22:17:30 GMT
I like your response, alun. And I agree. Free jazz is not distinct from other music. It feels distinct, but it really isn't. All music exists on a planned-unplanned spectrum, and within a set of either spoken or understood rules....... My favorite “free jazz” albums: Ornette Coleman’s FREE JAZZ and John Coltrane’s ASCENSION. Add something by Cecil Taylor, Albert Ayler, Sun Ra…. Pharoah Sander’s suite of “Aum,” “Venus” and “Capricorn Rising,” from TAUHID is one of the most extraordinary and best uses of “free jazz,” where sections of what may appear to be chaos alternate with sections of achingly beautiful melodic music. Fire music indeed. I have the original mono version of TAUHID and just recently heard the stereo version for the very first time. It was quite an ear-opener, especially to hear Sonny Sharrock’s guitar sound move around the room. I wonder if this was Van Gelder magic or simply Sonny walking around while playing. Another piece where there is a superb integration of the tropes, or methods, of “free jazz” into a musical whole is bassist Marcello Melis’ album on Black Saint (BSR 0012), THE NEW VILLAGE ON THE LEFT, with Enrico Ravi, trumpet, Roswell Rudd, trombone and Don Moye on drums. Here collective improvisations are blended not only with melodic jazz music and the brass marching band but also with the ancient Sardinian tradition of cantu a tenore (which utilizes overtone or “throat” singing) to create a little known masterpiece. An interesting feature of the album is that it opens and closes with long collective improvisations – however, the last track – called “The Fifth House” – is actually the first half of the piece played on the opening track – “The First House” – so that the album creates a closed circle of music. I have been unable to find this highly creative album on line, except for a very short excerpt. “can you play what you would sing”
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Post by bassman on Sept 17, 2021 9:24:07 GMT
[ ... ] In considering how music moves us or prompts emotions he makes the point that Stravinsky insisted that music does nothing but describe the notes set down on the musical stave. I'm not sure that even Igor believed that, and the point is only made in order to disprove it, Heining going on to say that Gibbs' music has emotion in abundance. [ ... ] What exactly did Stravinsky mean by "describe"? Did he say it in English or in Russian? If he meant something like "interpret", this would be closer to what we have been discussing lately. If he meant "render", then he must have been very confident about the "emotional precision" of his notes (and the ability of the orchestra to "read" his emotions). Well, he was Stravinsky, wasn't he, and he certainly knew what he was talking about.
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 17, 2021 10:11:12 GMT
Sorry, bassman, I can’t tell you exactly what Stravinsky meant nor the language he used. Duncan Heining simply says in his sleeve notes:
The composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein was adamant — “Music is never about anything. Music just is.” […] Twenty-three years earlier Igor Stravinsky had made similar remarks in his autobiography. To the Russian the very idea that music might express something other than the black markings on a stave was an actual obstacle to its appreciation on a “higher plane” and to the realisation of its “intrinsic value”.
Heining goes on to say that even such august views cannot be allowed to stand and that Gibbs music amply refutes them.
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Post by bassman on Sept 17, 2021 13:27:05 GMT
Sorry, bassman, I can’t tell you exactly what Stravinsky meant nor the language he used. Duncan Heining simply says in his sleeve notes: The composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein was adamant — “Music is never about anything. Music just is.” […] Twenty-three years earlier Igor Stravinsky had made similar remarks in his autobiography. To the Russian the very idea that music might express something other than the black markings on a stave was an actual obstacle to its appreciation on a “higher plane” and to the realisation of its “intrinsic value”.
Heining goes on to say that even such august views cannot be allowed to stand and that Gibbs music amply refutes them. Ah! That's something different. I think I understand, and I fully agree. Both of these quotations seem to be saying that music in the first place is neither about politics, nor about romance, nor about the sounds of the four seasons. Music is just music. And that, by the way, is why I personally prefer my music without lyrics, and strictly instrumental. On the other hand, this is where I obviously deviate from both Mr. B. and Mr. S. (both of whom wrote operas, didn't they, and operas surely are "about something", aren't they?). But who am I to criticize a Bernstein or a Stravinsky ...
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Post by alunsevern on Sept 17, 2021 13:54:08 GMT
Aha! I think you got ‘em, bassman. Lenny and Igor forgot about the operas they composed. 😀
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