|
Post by bassman on Nov 18, 2020 11:52:20 GMT
In his July 1996 Down Beat review of Duke Ellington's 1952 Seattle Concert (RCA/Bluebird 66531), John McDonough raves about drummer Louie Bellson being "full of ideas, tension, punch and sheer panache on 'Skin Deep' ". What he failed to notice was that the track runs 5 to 6 percent slow/low, putting the piece into B major instead of C major. Most of the other tracks on this CD are in correct pitch, as far as I remember. They may have been using two different tape machines on the occasion back in 1952, and heaven knows why nobody cared about pitch correction.
Problems like these are frequent with reissues of pre-1955 jazz, and even later. After all, it took forty years to pitch correct the A-Side of Kind of Blue. OK, we have a two percent pitch difference here (amounting to one third of a half tone), which many listeners wouldn't, and didn't, care about. But I know a lot of cases that are much more annoying. The Decca recordings of the old Basie band, reissued in correct pitch on LP (Brunswick, Coral, Decca) in the late 1950s, were remastered for CD decades later by Chronological Classics, resulting in most of the music sounding off-key. Same thing with some of Ellington's Victor recordings. The Dreyfus label is one of the precious few to have reissued some of that music both in reliable pitch and stunning sound. Although the speed of records had become standardized as early as 1925 or 1926, I am almost certain that speed variations, even with such companies as Decca and Victor, continued into the 1940s. And just for completeness' sake: I am not considering here any deviations regarding concert pitch, because they don't matter, and Duke would have had to buy new instruments for the entire band if they did. (More on this if need be.)
Now I am aware that most of you are not very much into pre-1955 jazz. But have you ever encountered any such issues? Do you even care? Unfortunately, very little can be gained from the web. Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Doom Girl on Nov 18, 2020 18:16:32 GMT
Interesting comments. That's one reason it's good to have a turntable with sliding pitch control and strobe.
When you say "I am not considering here any deviations regarding concert pitch" I guess you are referring to individual musicians being out of tune - something we have to live with. Something else that bothers me on some older (and some new) jazz records is the piano that is not properly tuned.
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Nov 18, 2020 19:18:29 GMT
Interesting comments. That's one reason it's good to have a turntable with sliding pitch control and strobe. When you say "I am not considering here any deviations regarding concert pitch" I guess you are referring to individual musicians being out of tune - something we have to live with. Something else that bothers me on some older (and some new) jazz records is the piano that is not properly tuned. Strobe doesn't help because your LP is spinning all right, and trying to adjust each individual track of the compilation (they're all different, that's the problem!) with a tuning fork held to your ear would be a drag. If it's a CD you're lost anyway. What I mean by "deviations regarding concert pitch" is this: One might argue that concert pitch has changed considerably during musical history, so you couldn't be sure at what pitch they were playing when the record was cut. But I am pretty sure that in jazz, by and large, 440 Hz has been the norm throughout the better part of the 20th century and since. Brass and reeds can be tuned only within a very small range, so unless you acquire some exotic types of instruments (such as the ones used in marching music, which are tuned differently), you couldn't possibly adapt to a piano that is tuned to a wildly different concert pitch. That's why I think the considerable deviations I have noticed must be a consequence of different recording speed rather than orchestras tuned differently at different times. The idea itself is absurd.
|
|
|
Post by jazzhead on Nov 18, 2020 23:47:04 GMT
Not sure if this is relevant, but I had no idea that this was a thing: "During the production of Blood on the Tracks, Dylan asked [producer Phil] Ramone to speed up many of the masters by 2-3%, a common practice in the 1960s and ’70s, especially for records sent to AM radio. It was thought that doing so would give the songs a little extra bounce to better engage listeners. Most of the songs from the New York sessions that previously circulated, officially and unofficially, are the sped-up versions that Dylan requested. On More Blood, More Tracks, for the first time, we’re hearing the songs exactly as Dylan recorded them.” www.bobdylan.com/news/more-blood-more-tracks-the-bootleg-series-vol-14-to-be-released-on-november-2/
|
|
|
Post by Doom Girl on Nov 19, 2020 0:45:45 GMT
Not sure if this is relevant, but I had no idea that this was a thing: "During the production of Blood on the Tracks, Dylan asked [producer Phil] Ramone to speed up many of the masters by 2-3%, a common practice in the 1960s and ’70s, especially for records sent to AM radio. It was thought that doing so would give the songs a little extra bounce to better engage listeners. Most of the songs from the New York sessions that previously circulated, officially and unofficially, are the sped-up versions that Dylan requested. On More Blood, More Tracks, for the first time, we’re hearing the songs exactly as Dylan recorded them.” www.bobdylan.com/news/more-blood-more-tracks-the-bootleg-series-vol-14-to-be-released-on-november-2/One of the most famous examples of "off pitch/off speed" seems to be Miles Davis KIND OF BLUE. From "AnalogPlanet" website: "We do know though that in the process of doing the first transfer from three track to two for Sony's 1992 gold CD, Wilder discovered a tape speed discrepancy produced by the main recorder's having run 1.25% slow during the original recording session for some of the songs, which produced a final original LP that played back side one faster than was accurate. The second back-up machine ran at the correct speed so Wilder used those back up tapes for all subsequent transfers, thus producing the correct pitch throughout, though the result was not "accurate" to the original pressing." So if you have a pre-1992 version.......
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Nov 19, 2020 8:03:51 GMT
So it was 1,25 % in the case of Kind of Blue, not 2 % as I said. Some die-hard fundamentalists still cling to the old version, claiming "If it was good enough for Miles, it must be good enough for me." I can easily imagine Miles' four-letter response if he were still alive. Interesting post from Jazzhead! Well, if The Nobel Prize Winner had to resort to such kind of trickery to get some extra bounce ... but no, don't let's argue about the man, he's not my cup of tea.
Edit: P.S. Oh... it just occurred to me. What if RCA Victor had wanted to add some extra bounce to Ellington's "Jack The Bear"? Anathema ...
|
|
|
Post by Doom Girl on Nov 19, 2020 19:09:41 GMT
Oh... it just occurred to me. What if RCA Victor had wanted to add some extra bounce to Ellington's "Jack The Bear"? Anathema ...
I think that we can agree that "Jack The Bear" doesn't need any extra bounce! What a great bass part on this tune. This remastered version seems to have a sharper definition of instruments, but no problems with speed or pitch.
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Nov 20, 2020 9:40:29 GMT
Oh... it just occurred to me. What if RCA Victor had wanted to add some extra bounce to Ellington's "Jack The Bear"? Anathema ...
I think that we can agree that "Jack The Bear" doesn't need any extra bounce! What a great bass part on this tune. This remastered version seems to have a sharper definition of instruments, but no problems with speed or pitch. That's exactly right. *A flat major* - right in the groove. Sounds like it's taken from the Dreyfus edition, which is state of the art, or the like. JTB was reissued once as track one on RCA LPM-1715 "At His Very Best", in the late nineteen-fifties. I own an early US pressing which sounds very good, and another, also early, European pressing where "Jack The Bear" runs 4 to 5 % sharp and the entire B side has a rumble issue originating in a different metal master than the US pressing (clearly visible, a.o. things, from the different size of the runout).
The Bluebird "Complete Blanton-Webster Band" has all the tracks in correct speed, I think, but the sound is deplorable.
|
|
jazzfromatoz
New Member
A jazz collector who started his journey into jazz in 1972.
Posts: 3
|
Post by jazzfromatoz on Jan 23, 2021 21:34:42 GMT
The earliest Capitol Records of the Nat King Cole Trio were off pitch on the original discs and each subesquent 78 rpm, 45 rpm, LP and CD reissue, until drummer Kenny Washington uncovered the problem and they were pitch corrected prior to be released in the Mosaic boxed set.
McCoy Tyner: Dimensions was originally issued on an Elektra Musician LP, but the Collectables CD reissue is an absolute mess. The timings on this CD reissue for tracks 5 and 6 are longer than shown due to flawed remastering. It sounds like the speed of the tape is inconsistent, one can hear the sudden changes in speed back and forth. I have compared it to the original LP and found at least one other owner who noticed the same issue.
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Jan 24, 2021 9:03:04 GMT
[ ... ] McCoy Tyner: Dimensions was originally issued on an Elektra Musician LP, but the Collectables CD reissue is an absolute mess. The timings on this CD reissue for tracks 5 and 6 are longer than shown due to flawed remastering. It sounds like the speed of the tape is inconsistent, one can hear the sudden changes in speed back and forth. I have compared it to the original LP and found at least one other owner who noticed the same issue. You're absolutely right - there's something wrong with some reissues of "Dimensions". "Uncle Bubba" should be in E flat major, which is also proved by this live video:
The MP3 download offered on Amazon is in D, which is six percent off key. I can only judge by the short sample presented online, of course, but it also seems that you have been observing "sudden changes in speed back and forth". Did Amazon rip the Collectables CD? All I know is that a lot of Amazon downloads, especially when they are on the cheap side, are of inferior quality. I can prove it, but I would have to check my download history if anyone really wants me to.
|
|
jazzfromatoz
New Member
A jazz collector who started his journey into jazz in 1972.
Posts: 3
|
Post by jazzfromatoz on Jan 24, 2021 23:21:19 GMT
I bought McCoy Tyner's Dimensions CD from Oldies.com. When I noticed the problem on the first hearing, I compared it to my LP copy and uncovered the flaws. I wonder if the source tape was damaged. In any case, I returned it to Oldies for credit and assumed that the label never made a corrected copy of the CD.
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Jan 25, 2021 7:39:09 GMT
I bought McCoy Tyner's Dimensions CD from Oldies.com. When I noticed the problem on the first hearing, I compared it to my LP copy and uncovered the flaws. I wonder if the source tape was damaged. In any case, I returned it to Oldies for credit and assumed that the label never made a corrected copy of the CD. There's a Japanese CD reissue from 2013 which I would expect to be OK, given its big label provenance. But who knows?
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Nov 22, 2021 13:48:20 GMT
Giving Sonny Rollins' "East Broadway Run Down" another spin lately (see Saturday Listening), it occurred to me that both tracks on Side B are in the highly improbable key of A major (B major for tenor), or at least very, very close to it. My guess is that the original pitch might have been either Bb (C for tenor) or - much more likely - Ab (Bb for tenor). I mean, playing in B major wouldn't bother a virtuoso such as Rollins (not much), but why would he? On both numbers? Somebody must have noticed this and "righted" the B Side into Ab (Bb) major:
[ - - - listen below - - - ]
Doesn't sound too bad, does it?
Two questions: First, what went on at Englewood Cliffs on May 9, 1966? And secondly, do all pressings show this "anomaly", if indeed there is one?
|
|
|
Post by gregorythefish on Nov 22, 2021 15:22:16 GMT
If anyone could play in five sharps, Sonny could. But it is an interesting question. I don't know why anyone would CHOOSE to.
|
|
|
Post by Doom Girl on Nov 23, 2021 19:16:15 GMT
I agree that any key would not be a problem for a musician such as Sonny Rollins. In any case, playing F, C, G, D and A sharp is no more technically difficult on the sax than the natural tones. It's the mind set within the tonal environment that does the trick, and the fingers, and "ear" do the rest. (It has been said that on his solo on Dee Dee from the first of the GOLDEN CIRCLE albums Ornette Coleman effectively changed key no fewer than twelve times.)
It's an old truism (probably more often false than true) that each sharp will enhance the "brilliance," "sprightliness," etc to a tune. Perhaps Side 2, with it's variant be-bop-a-lula was meant to have a certain overall "feel," in contrast to the side long piece on Side 1.
I have an original pressing of EAST BROAD WAY RUN DOWN and will try, time permitting, to compare it for differences in key to the videos on YouTube - there seem to be many available in addition to the ones shown above with the bizarre choice of movie clips.
"what went on at Englewood Cliffs on May 9, 1966?" some great music was made!
|
|