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Post by Doom Girl on Sept 18, 2020 17:45:33 GMT
no matter who said it, or how credible they are, it is an insanely stupid statement. dig adam neely's new youtube video on music theory and white supremacy. worth your time. Thanks for the rec. Neely's video is EXCELLENT – not only it’s main point, but so many avenues to explore - Anuja Kamat and North Indian classical music, the theories of George Russell and Barry Harris, Russian female music theory, etc., etc. Can’t say that I agree with the notion that you can’t get your degree in music theory if you can’t dance, but I’ve always loved Donald Duck. His “How to Play Music with a “Drunk” Feel” video also very good, and more serious than the title might indicate.
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Post by bassman on Sept 19, 2020 5:54:47 GMT
no matter who said it, or how credible they are, it is an insanely stupid statement. dig adam neely's new youtube video on music theory and white supremacy. worth your time. White supremacy is a view favoured by white idiots. Crying "white supremacy" at the mere mention of European scales and chords is just as idiotic. More to the topic: The music of Bill Evans is not black music. So what? (Enter Coltrane solo.)
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 19, 2020 20:12:56 GMT
did you watch the video, bassman? because that isn't what is happening at all.
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Post by bassman on Sept 20, 2020 7:59:36 GMT
did you watch the video, bassman? because that isn't what is happening at all. I did, in fact. Just take this: "Every culture has its own tradition of music theory." True. The problem is that jazz, during its short history, has never been thoroughly studied except in terms of biography, discography and the like. We still don't know what makes up the essence of jazz, I mean even the basics. Very little is known - and much nonsense has been written - both about the "swing" phenomenon and jazz tonality. So what's the theory behind jazz, as opposed to Baroque or Indian music? And in practice, aren't we still relying on the "figured bass" method (in jazz, I mean!) because it's the only way that makes sense if you are given a leadsheet of a song you don't know? Isn't it true that in jazz, especially between 1930 and the fusion era, a lot of emphasis has been put on so-called "standards" written by white guys who were using 19th century harmonies? Why did so many - too many - musicians, both black and white, go on and on to recycle those hackneyed show tunes? When I first listened to Ornette Coleman, my thought was: This sounds very much like "pure" jazz. (It wasn't as simple as that, of course.) Jazz has absorbed so many European elements that it's not a mistake to know your instrument inside out, the "European" way. Forget about "white supremacy". I would have appreciated if Americans had been given the chance to vote for a black President. But this opportunity has been shamefully wasted.
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 20, 2020 15:34:11 GMT
know your instrument inside out, the "European" way. That's the exact problem, right there.
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Post by bassman on Sept 20, 2020 17:15:00 GMT
know your instrument inside out, the "European" way. That's the exact problem, right there. Not at all. Most of the instruments used in jazz are European, and knowing how to handle them and exploit whatever sounds they have to offer has never been a drawback. But you don't have to do it if you choose differently. Moreover, I think we must not equate "jazz" with "black music". That's what you might prefer to do, but it contradicts historical evidence. Again: Please don't get me wrong. There are those maniacs who will go on lecturing about the white origin of jazz, and all that shit. Same thing on the other side of the fence. Why do we need fences?
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Post by Doom Girl on Sept 20, 2020 23:33:14 GMT
In 1958, Bill Evans began appearing and recording with Miles Davis. It appears that his first recordings with Miles, Coltrane, Paul Chambers and Philly Joe Jones were made from a radio broadcast at the Café Bohemia on May 17, 1958, but were not released until years later, on at least two albums, including FOUR-PLAY (JMY ME 6402) and MAKIN’ WAX (Chakra CH 100 MDA). The versions of “Four,” “Bye Bye Blackbird,” “Walkin’” and an incomplete “Two Bass Hit” have some very good Davis and Coltrane, but Evans’ subdued playing, often barely audible, does not stand out as a major contribution. His solos on “Bye Bye Blackbird” and “Walkin’” are short and adequate, with the latter having some interesting chord effects, rhythmic variety and note choices, showing promise. “Walkin’” also has an awesome bowed bass solo by Chambers, at 23 already one of the best all-around bass players. Also on FOUR-PLAY are three tracks (“Walkin’, “All of You,” and “Round Midnight,”) recorded later in the year, on August 9, from a broadcast from the Spotlite Lounge in Washington, D.C., with Davis, Coltrane, Adderley, Chambers and Jimmy Cobb, the band that would go on to record KIND OF BLUE just ~7 months later. Evans’ playing is satisfactory, not particularly impressive, but his solos show a bit more self-confidence. It’s interesting to note the changes in Coltrane’s style in just three months’ time, since the Café Bohemia gig; the “sheets of sound” are in the ascendant. (If these tracks are not in your collection, they can be heard on YouTube with the titles: “Miles Davis-May 17, 1958 Café Bohemia, New York City” and “Miles Davis-August 9, 1958 Spotlite Lounge, Washington DC”.)
In 1958, Evans also was recorded with Miles at Newport and at the Plaza Hotel in New York City. Four tracks from Newport were eventually released (in 1964) on a split album with Thelonious Monk, MILES AND MONK AT NEWPORT (Columbia CL2178). Evans’ piano is often barely audible, drowned out by Cobb’s’ enthusiastic drumming. His solos are short and simple, not at the same energy level as the dynamic duo of Coltrane and Adderley. Bill has his best solo on the less frantic “Fran-Dance,” the one tune where he can also be heard adequately throughout. The simultaneous piano-drum punches during the sax solo on “Two Bass Hit” are executed perfectly – very impressive. However, based on these tracks, Evans did not fare so well at this gig. Of the two tracks added on later releases, “Bye Bye Blackbird” has a nice piano intro, comping and solo and “The Theme” is just a sign-off featuring brief Chambers and Cobb solos.
Evans is not quite as shy on JAZZ AT THE PLAZA VOL. 1 (Columbia C32470), which was recorded on September 9, 1958 but not released until 1973. He has a weird little right-handed solo on “Oleo” (following an incendiary Cannonball) but redeems himself with his beautiful performance on a quartet version without the saxes of “My Funny Valentine.” His solo and the Evans/Chambers/Cobb interplay under Miles’ solo are outstanding, a vindication of Davis’ choice of the pianist. On “If I Were A Bell,” Bill’s solo definitely enters into Ahmad Jamal territory, likely delighting Miles. A speedy “Straight No Chaser” is a very good sextet track but does not show Evans in his best light. Some of these “live” appearances, though all are worth hearing, were rather poorly recorded and this may account, at least in part, for Evans’ apparent poor showing on them, compared to the studio session on May 26 of 1958. (Three of the Plaza tracks are also on 1958 MILES, CBS/Sony 20AP 1401, Japan.)
In these appearances with Miles, Evans was disturbed and disappointed with audience response, his solos sometimes receiving little or no applause, a reaction that he and some others attributed to racial prejudice, what the pundits writing for Down Beat at the time called “Crow Jim.” As clear from some reader responses, jazz fans with even a modicum of sensitivity recognized the absurdity of equating the occasional inconvenience and “mental anguish” suffered by a few white musicians with the systematic racial injustice daily doled out to their black brethren. Another likely reason for poor audience response – and one that some of the jazz pundits didn’t want to acknowledge - was that Bill’s solos, at this point, were rarely at the energy level of a Coltrane or Adderley, a Philly Joe or Jimmy Cobb, and club audiences knew it. This is most obvious when he solos on the up-tempo numbers, excitement and energy dissipating despite the heroic efforts of bassist and drummer. Evans seemed an odd choice for this band, but Miles had a more long term agenda, shifting his repertoire away from that of the high energy juggernaut the sextet had become to a more quiet and subtle approach, a cooler approach that would result in KIND OF BLUE.
In May of 1958, Evans went into the studio with Miles, Coltrane, Adderley, Chambers and Cobb. This is the real deal, a situation where Evans could prove his worth in the Davis environment. Among the tracks they cut was a version of “Love for Sale” that I especially like. It appeared on 1958 MILES in 1974 but I first encountered it on the two-record 1980 Davis compilation CIRCLE IN THE ROUND (Columbia KC2 36278). I consider this track more than the “minor masterpiece” which James Isaacs called it in his CIRCLE IN THE ROUND liner notes. In many ways the performance presaged Bill’s future – not only aspects of KIND OF BLUE but his own trio with LaFaro and Motian. From the very first notes of the piano introduction, where Bill expertly modulates the tone and volume of the instrument, it is clear that something special is afoot. After the brief introduction, that sounds somewhat modal in nature, Miles enters with muted horn and launches into the melody with its well-known progression. Evans is fully engaged and, with Chambers and Cobb, provides good support during Miles’ solo and then throughout Cannonball’s ebullient turn. He slackens off just a bit during the tenor solo, perhaps not wanting to get in the way of Coltrane’s more arcane approach to the chords. Evans’ solo meets the high standard of the previous three players and is wonderfully inventive, alive with rhythmic and melodic variation. During parts of it, Chambers foregoes the walking bass role, returns to patterns played during the exposition of the tune and bass and piano engage in a more lively improvisational interaction, with sensitive support from Cobb, who has modulated his playing to support the duo.
An Evans-led trio with Chambers and Cobb might have been superior to the trio that would, in a few years time, be heralded by many as a revolutionary development in the jazz piano trio, i.e., Evans with LaFaro and Motian. (But more about this notion later.) The other tracks that were recorded in the studio session in May of 1958, “On Green Dolphin Street,” “Fran-Dance” and “Stella by Starlight” (first released in 1959 on JAZZ TRACK, along with the “Ascenseur pour l’échafaud” soundtrack recordings, Columbia CL1268, and later on 1958 MILES), are also classic Miles, with nice work by Bill, and at times – especially on “Green Dolphin Street” – they also exhibit the kind of piano/bass/drum interactions heard on “Love for Sale.” A version of 1958 MILES that contains all four tracks from the May 26, 1958 session plus a very nice alternate take of Fran-Dance (but not the tracks from the Plaza Hotel) is available for download from iTunes. If not already in your collection, it is highly recommended! The horns are all in fine form and the pairing of Chambers and Cobb is superb.
In 1958, Bill also played at the session for PORTRAIT OF CANNONBALL (Riverside RLP12-269), Adderley’s wonderful first album for Riverside, which introduced Miles’ composition “Nardis,” which Evans would virtually adopt as his own, and at the first sessions for George Russell’s complex NEW YORK, N.Y, (Decca DL9216) at which the piano played a major role. Finally, on December 15 of 1958 Bill went into the studio to record his second album as leader, EVERYBODY DIGS BILL EVANS (Riverside RLP 12-291), perhaps the best of his early albums.
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Post by bassman on Sept 21, 2020 9:12:51 GMT
Another great contribution, especially the part about the "minor masterpiece" which is also among my favourite Miles. Thank you DG.
One fun fact about the 1958 Plaza concerts (Miles, Duke Ellington) is that in the liner notes to both records, written 15 years after the event, Irving Townsend names the Edwardian Room as being the location, and from his own words we gather that he himself was present. Later editions, however, say "Persian Room."
We have reason to doubt Townsend's credibility because he also writes about the Ellington band as "being the same band that broke up the Newport Festival that summer and made a popular hero out of Paul Gonzalves (sic)." Ellington's 1958 Newport appearance is an interesting chapter of its own, because the original LP consisted of re-recorded studio versions. However, what Townsend was obviously referring to was the 1956 Newport Festival.
The other (very unusual) thing that I associate with the Miles Davis Plaza LP is the fact that Cannonball sometimes seems to be playing slightly ahead of the beat, especially when the music is played at an insane tempo (Oleo). Was he trying to indicate he could top them all, and Miles in particular?
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Post by Doom Girl on Sept 21, 2020 16:09:13 GMT
............The other (very unusual) thing that I associate with the Miles Davis Plaza LP is the fact that Cannonball sometimes seems to be playing slightly ahead of the beat, especially when the music is played at an insane tempo (Oleo). Was he trying to indicate he could top them all, and Miles in particular? Yes, I get a great sense of propulsion in Cannonball’s playing – it brought to my mind the image of a man swallowing his horn, trying so hard to get ahead of the music. Cannonball was a man on fire in these early sessions. I think there was a period where, in technical facility on the instrument and melodic and rhythmic creativity and sophistication, he surpassed Coltrane. Of course their pathways were much different subsequently, with John focused on the spiritual and transcendent, whereas there was a sense of joy and fun to Julian’s playing that sought a broader kind of popularity.
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 21, 2020 16:29:56 GMT
Jazz is black music. This is basic.
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Post by bassman on Sept 21, 2020 18:00:46 GMT
Jazz is black music. This is basic. Jazz is black. It is Jewish, Italian, Gypsy. It started with guys like Scott Joplin writing European-style piano pieces with a swing. Lennie Tristano's music is not black music, but it is jazz, without the slightest doubt. Django Reinhardt swung the sh** out of his guitar. New Orleans was African, Spanish, and French (clarinet tradition, Alphonse Picou, Sidney Bechet...). Jazz is unthinkable without its multi-cultural roots. THIS IS BASIC.
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Post by bassman on Sept 21, 2020 18:08:18 GMT
............The other (very unusual) thing that I associate with the Miles Davis Plaza LP is the fact that Cannonball sometimes seems to be playing slightly ahead of the beat, especially when the music is played at an insane tempo (Oleo). Was he trying to indicate he could top them all, and Miles in particular? Yes, I get a great sense of propulsion in Cannonball’s playing – it brought to my mind the image of a man swallowing his horn, trying so hard to get ahead of the music. Cannonball was a man on fire in these early sessions. I think there was a period where, in technical facility on the instrument and melodic and rhythmic creativity and sophistication, he surpassed Coltrane. Of course their pathways were much different subsequently, with John focused on the spiritual and transcendent, whereas there was a sense of joy and fun to Julian’s playing that sought a broader kind of popularity. Cannonball entered the scene as an accomplished virtuoso. So did Phil Woods, and so did Gary Burton. Awesome people.
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Post by Doom GIrl on Sept 25, 2020 19:28:16 GMT
Did you know the piano could sound so many different ways?
"You have to stop listening in categories. The music is either good or it's bad." Duke Ellington
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Post by gregorythefish on Sept 25, 2020 22:38:09 GMT
I am fairly weary, bassman, and honestly I think my energy is not best spent arguing with you, a person with whom I tend to fundamentally agree and with whom I have very little difference. We are on essentially the same team. But I think we are not using the same definition of what makes something "black music". I do not call jazz black music because it has seen no non-black essential innovators or because it is not multicultural. I do not make those ludicrous claims. I call jazz black music for this reason: Jazz exists because black people in the United States created it and its framework. The contributions of people who are not black are important, but there would be jazz in some form without them. There would be none without black people in the United States.
Tristano and Django play black music, though they themselves are not black. This is a matter of opinion, but it is what I mean when I say jazz is black music.
Similarly, Eminem plays black music as well. Most people play black music, in fact, according to the definition I use.
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Post by bassman on Sept 26, 2020 9:27:39 GMT
[ ... ] The contributions of people who are not black are important, but there would be jazz in some form without them. There would be none without black people in the United States. Tristano and Django play black music, though they themselves are not black. This is a matter of opinion, but it is what I mean when I say jazz is black music. Similarly, Eminem plays black music as well. Most people play black music, in fact, according to the definition I use. I, too, feel that there is a lot of agreement between us. Except one thing, which is - as you say - perhaps a matter of definition. But let me just explain.
"The contributions of people who are not black are important, but there would be jazz in some form without them." Wrong, in my opinion.
"There would be none without black people in the United States." True.
Early on, black people were confronted with European marching music (to take just one example). They seemed to have liked it because of its percussive character, but their rhythmic approach was different. Black players turned marching rhythm into its exact opposite, if you will. So in the end, what resulted was that unique "swing" phenomenon found neither in African nor in European music. (For an aside: I don't know if it is safe to say that most "world" music has some kind of groove, except classical European music ... but let me just make this bold/funny assertion at this point).
Now this, at least, is the easy explanation. But it seems that the "ternary" feel that is characteristic of swing rhythm has some of its roots in traditional English or Irish folk music, too. Similarly, some kind of "blue notes" may be found in Scottish or Irish folk songs. But all this was, it seems, uniquely transformed when (more than!) two cultures met. It would be very silly to claim that both jazz rhythm and blue notes came from Europe. This would be the very opposite of what I am trying to point out.
Anyway: To my ears, African music is far more sophisticated than (early) jazz, which took some time to develop*. Jazz musicians gradually adopted all the complex harmonies of late 19th century European music - not always to good effect, considering taste - and gave them a different meaning. And jazz rhythm eventually grew to its maturity in the "old testament" Count Basie orchestra. This, to me, was the final victory of the "swing" phenomenon over marches and polkas.
Is the black element the one that prevails? It depends on the style, the period, the people. It mostly does, and it is indispensable. There's lots of black music outside jazz, but jazz is unique both in its origins and in its universal appeal.
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*I know we disagree about this, and about André Hodeir ...
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