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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 17, 2019 5:50:06 GMT
Are you interested in the mono records only or do you want stereo as well? Most of my Impulses are stereo. basically I'm on the mono side but for this purpose stereo will be alright. all Impulse issues, mono and stereo, were released at the same time so you wellcome.
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jcband
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by jcband on Jul 18, 2019 11:29:34 GMT
A-11 stereo Quincy Jones RVG STEREO both sides
Curtis Fuller I have a red/black label but it has RVG STEREO stamp on it. The cover is as you described it for the orange/black press
Shelly Manne RVG STEREO but the separated stamps. Like a quarter turn apart in the dead wax the others were side by side and larger letters.
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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 18, 2019 19:59:35 GMT
A-11 stereo Quincy Jones RVG STEREO both sides thanks: I miss the following info yet. this session was recorded at Capitol Studios, NYC, engineer Bob Arnold (MONO) or Frank Abbey (STEREO). in other Impulse issues, for example A-16, Max Roach It's Time, the original engineer is George Piros BUT Mr. Van Gelder re-recorded and mastered it. on this cover (A-16) all these credits are reported. question: is it the same for A-11? both the engineers are credited? on some issues, for example A-13, Curtis Fuller Soul Trombone the original engineers are the same as A-11, same location Capitol Studios, NYC, but there are no credits on cover. the presence of RVG suggests it was at least mastered by him. gst?
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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 18, 2019 20:12:06 GMT
thanks: need one more info about the etchings. VAN GELDER or RVG?
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Post by mortolan on Jul 18, 2019 21:52:08 GMT
just like museums' curators, I'm trying to get everything out from Impulse darkness and ask everybody's help. while completing a whole overview on this label I found several problems I would like to solve. here's the first: AS-9120: John Coltrane Expressionorange label, a product of ABC records INC. New York N.Y. 10019 on label, a product of ABC records INC on back cover. engineer Rudy Van Gelder VAN GELDER stamped on side 2 onlycan everybody check your copy (mono as well) to see if Van Gelder is on both sides? Salve DottorJazz, I'm a long-time reader, occassional poster to LondonJazzCollector, and an Impulse collector, so, after being away for a while happy to discover this discussion thread. I have a rather extensive Impulse! collection, so I'd like to help you out with your research wherever I can. My copies of: AS-9120: John Coltrane -- Expression (stereo)
Orange/black, non-gloss label; A Product of ABC Records Inc on label; stamped AS-9120-A and etched LW in side 1 run-out; etched AS-9120-B, stamped VAN GELDER and etched LW in run-out on side 2; A Product of ABC Records Inc on back cover. A-9134: Archie Shepp -- Mama Too Tight (promo, mono)White label promo, non-gloss label; No company info on label, a Product of ABC Paramount Records Inc on back cover; etched A 9134-A and LW in Side 1 run-out; etched A 9134-B and LW in Side 2 run-out; No Van Gelder in either side run-out. More to come, m.
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Post by mortolan on Jul 18, 2019 22:16:36 GMT
A-11: Quincy Jones The Quintessenceorange label, a product of Am-Par record Comp on label, a product of Am-Par record Comp on back cover A-12: Benny Carter Further Definitionsorange label, a product of Am-Par record Comp on label, a product of Am-Par record Comp on back cover A-13: CURTIS FULLER SOUL TROMBONEorange label, a product of Am-Par record Comp on label, a product of Am-Par record Comp on back cover I don't have these records: correct NO Van Gelder? Mine are as follow: A-11: Quincy Jones -- The Quintessence (mono)Orange/black, non-gloss label; A Product of Am-Par Record Corp on label, a product of Am-Par Record Corp on back cover; Etched A-11.A-1 and LW and stamped RVG in Side 1 run-out; Etched A-11.B-1 and LW and stamped RVG in Side 2 run-out; A-12: Benny Carter -- Further Definitions (stereo)
Stereo sticker on mono cover; Orange/black, non-gloss label; A Product of ABC Paramount Records, Inc on label and back cover; Etched AS-12-A LW and stamped RVG STEREO in Side 1 run-out; Etched AS-12-B LW and stamped RVG STEREO in Side 2 run-out; A-13: Curtis Fuller -- Soul Trombone (Canadian Sparton*, stereo)Black Sparton stereo label, A Product of Am-Par Record Corp on back cover; Etched AS-13-A LW 001-1 and stamped RVG STEREO in Side 1 run-out; Etched AS-12-B LW 001-1 and stamped RVG STEREO in Side 2 run-out; m. *Canadian Impulse releases on Sparton were pressed from Impulse stampers sent from the US, until 1969
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Post by mortolan on Jul 18, 2019 23:07:06 GMT
A-16: Max Roach It's TimeA-17: Jackie Paris The Song is ParisA-19: Manny Albam Jazz Goes to the MoviesA-20: Shelly Manne 234all these records were RE-RECORDED and MASTERED by RVG, but not originally recorded. question: VAN GELDER stamped on all? AS-16: Max Roach -- It's Time -> VAN GELDER STEREO stamped both sides A-17: Jackie Paris -- The Song is Paris -> VAN GELDER stamped both sides A-19: Manny Albam -- Jazz Goes to the Movies -> RVG stamped both sides A-20: Shelly Manne -- 234 -> RVG stamped both sides m.
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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 23, 2019 17:41:02 GMT
A-20: Shelly Manne -- 234 -> RVG stamped both sides hi mortolan, thanks for helping. re Shelly Manne 234, A-20 MONO: is it RVG or VAN GELDER? the question is wider: from A-1 to A-14 the first pressing has RVG, from A-15 VAN GELDER (data from my work in progress). what I'm investigating is the exact last number RVG and the first VAN GELDER. this info is nowhere, only in the original issues (and I haven't got them all). it's clear that RVG was used first, then it was changed into VAN GELDER. reissues of the first numbers may have VAN GELDER instead of RVG, but this is out of my research. same question for Manny Albam Jazz Goes to the Movies, A-19same question for Jackie Paris The Song is Paris A-17 : for this number you refer to VAN GELDER. ALL these records weren't recorded by Mr. Van Gelder but only re-recorded and mastered.
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Post by mortolan on Jul 23, 2019 20:11:22 GMT
Hello dottorjazz,
I understand better the focus of your investigation. Thanks.
As far as I understand, if you are trying to chronicle a definitive transition from "etched RVG", to "stamped RVG", to "stamped VAN GELDER" (and "stamped VAN GELDER STEREO"), you will have to do so taking into account the transition from "AM-PAR", to "ABC Paramount", to "ABC Records" labels, because ABC Paramount and ABC Records labels can be represses of earlier issues, so your research will need to take into account:
1. Original stampers may have been used for the represses; so you may see an RVG etching after Van Gelder started using the VAN GELDER stamp on his acetates. 2. As LJC's meticulous documentation of original mono and stereo Impulse releases shows, there is no clear-cut switch from one address/label to the next, rather it is a transition over the course of a number of title issues.
That said -- and I hope I'm explaining myself clearly -- here is some follow-up info as per your last post.
> re Shelly Manne 234, A-20 MONO: is it RVG or VAN GELDER? It is an RVG stamp on an Am-Par label; both sides
> same question for Manny Albam Jazz Goes to the Movies, A-19 It is an RVG stamp on an Am-Par label (mono); both sides
> same question for Jackie Paris The Song is Paris A-17 : for this number you refer to VAN GELDER Sorry, I got crossed up on this one, because I recently replaced the beat-up US copy I had with a better condition Canadian Sparton mono of this title; it has no RVG ID in the run-out, but it is pressed from a US stamper (LW).
Here's a question for you, Dottore, when you say RVG "re-recorded" a title, do you mean he is known to have remixed the session from original discrete tracks, remastered from the original mix, or that he re-cut the title from the original master, or all of the above?
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Post by Doom Girl on Jul 23, 2019 21:52:06 GMT
Mortolan, you raise many important points in relation to Dottore's fine research and help to clarify some of my own questions.
I have for example orange labels of Coltrane's "Africa Brass" (A-6) and "Live at the Village Vanguard" (A-10). However they do not have the "AM-PAR" label but rather they have the orange label with the third Impulse iteration "A Product of ABC Records Inc," establishing them, I think, as c. 1967-68 repressings of the original 1961 and 1962 releases, and yet they have the RVG stamp (and LW), not the Van Gelder that "new" 67-68 releases would, I think, be expected to have.
I am unsure how to accurately express/explain this - are these repressings, reissuses, records pressed with original masters? Will they have the aural quality of the original releases? I guess my problem is mostly terminology, but it seems this all can be very important in establishing the value of the albums.
Now may I request your opinions on a theoretical question: if a near mint (NM) album is valued at, say, $300, in both its original release (AM-PAR) and with the third iteration label (product of ABC records Inc), would it be safe to a assume that an intermediate year NM release with the second iteration (product of ABC Paramount) would be similarly valued? These might be an original 1961 release and then 1963-66 and 1967-68 releases (repressings? remasters)? Will the aural qualities of such releases be different? I am sorry for what may seem a naive question, but perhaps it will help me to further understand these (to me) complex issues.
Thank you
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Post by mortolan on Jul 24, 2019 1:19:57 GMT
Hello Doom Girl,
> I have for example orange labels of Coltrane's "Africa Brass" (A-6) and "Live at the Village Vanguard" (A-10) ...
I think you will find that the run-out markings on your later pressings are identical to the first pressings of those titles, meaning that they were made from stored original stampers … And therefore, sonically, there should be no qualitative difference between the pressings. What is more likely to affect the quality of different pressings made from the same batch of stampers is, for example, at what point in the life-cycle of a particular stamper your pressing was made; was it made earlier on in its run, or at the end of its life-cycle, close to being worn out? Even the time of day a pressing was made would have a greater bearing on the sonic properties of an Am-Par vs. ABC Records pressing of the same title ... Many people believe there is a "sweet spot" in the daily run of a press; not too early in the day, and not too late.
I think those of us who obsess over whether we have a "true" first pressing Impulse (in the case of A-6 and A10 ... "Am-Pars") do so simply because we want to know we have a genuine first-pressing, rather than anything to do with sonic properties. I don’t believe there to be any qualitative difference between the three Orange/Black Impulse label variations (that may even extend out to Black/Red Impulse label titles), and interestingly, to skip to your later question, I don’t think — with respect to Impulse — I have found there to be a significant market value difference across the first three label variations.
In almost every instance I know of across the three early Impulse label variations, we are talking about re-presses, not remasters.
Stereo vs mono Impulses — as opposed to Blue Notes — is another fraught topic for another evening ;-)
m.
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Post by Doom Girl on Jul 24, 2019 2:46:37 GMT
Thank you so much Mortolan, for all of that valuable information! Yes, when you have time some day, I would like to hear more about your views on stereo vs mono Impulses, especially vis a vis Blue Note releases, as you mention. As it happens, my collection is rather a hodge podge of monos and stereos as that was not a factor I originally paid much attention to when I first started collecting jazz vinyl - I mostly just bought what was available of the artists I liked. Many were obtained as cut-outs in the United States, for example - records that shops just wanted to get rid of! I see now that the monos are often more highly valued.
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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 24, 2019 4:28:04 GMT
a definitive transition from "etched RVG", to "stamped RVG", to "stamped VAN GELDER" (and "stamped VAN GELDER STEREO") I thought this investigation could be much easier when I started ... sorry if can look fragmentary, but every dowel will get its place when this will be over. RVG etched- RVG stamped- VAN GELDERwell known re Blue Note, I did NOT know could be related to Impulse too: I've never seen RVG etched on Impulse, has ever been used?
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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 24, 2019 4:56:23 GMT
the transition from "AM-PAR", to "ABC Paramount", to "ABC Records" labels, because ABC Records and ABC Records labels can be represses of earlier issues. this is maybe the easier feature. I'm dealing with first issues only, MONO by preference, but STEREO can be considered in the same way as Impulse released both mono and stereo at the same time. LABEL: AM-PAR: A-1 to A-33 ABC-PARAMOUNT: from A-34 to A-9118, 9124 ABC RECORDS: from A-9120 (several variants of ABC RECORDS are known) under investigation after 9118 BACK COVER: trying to match AM-PAR labels with covers is another problem. A PRODUCT OF AM-PAR RECORD CORP: A-1 to A-14 A PRODUCT OF ABC-PARAMOUNT RECORDS INC: from A-15 covers under investigation after A-14 all covers I could examine had ABC-PARAMOUNT
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Post by dottorjazz on Jul 24, 2019 5:09:28 GMT
Here's a question for you, Dottore, when you say RVG "re-recorded" a title, do you mean he is known to have remixed the session from original discrete tracks, remastered from the original mix, or that he re-cut the title from the original master, or all of the above? A-17 and A-19 were recorded by Bob Arnold (mono) and Frank Abbey (stereo), A-20 by George Piros. the notes of all these albums have the credits to all the engineers: RE-RECORDING AND MASTERS: RUDY VAN GELDER that's all I know.
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