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Post by Rich on Nov 9, 2018 17:50:03 GMT
Hey guys. I've been doing a lot of listening to early Hackensack records lately. I put on PRLP 7017, Art Farmer & Gigi Gryce just now, and some of you may be aware of this, but listen to how similar the heads of "Evening in Casablanca" (Gryce) and "Carolyn" (Morgan) are:
Morgan must have loved the former Gigi Gryce composition...no mention of it in the No Room for Squares liner notes though.
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Post by gregorythefish on Nov 9, 2018 19:09:39 GMT
for a real treat:
sing "Blue Monk" to yourself. just the first two bars.
now sing the Disney tune "Cruella D'Eville", again just the first two bars.
they are actually quite different, but good luck spotting the difference just by humming. look up the sheet music for both to have some even bigger fun.
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Post by bassman on Nov 10, 2018 11:53:05 GMT
Miles Davis used to claim authorship of quite a number of tunes written by other people, most notably "Solar", which is a Chuck Wayne tune called "Sonny" recorded by the guitarist a couple of years earlier.
Similarly, Stan Kenton's "Intermission Riff" leans heavily on Jimmie Lunceford's "Yard Dog Mazurka".
There is a John Kirby record from ca. 1940 which foreshadows "Blue Monk". It's called "Pastel Blue" - listen at 2:00!
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Post by Rich on Nov 21, 2018 20:24:09 GMT
Here's another one I found involving Lee Morgan:
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Post by bassman on Feb 25, 2019 17:40:05 GMT
Rich, I found yet another instance of Delilah being (ab)used in a rather crude manner: It's a track called "Mimi's Interlude" from Ray Draper's "Tuba Sounds" (Prestige 7096).
(Edit: I decided to cancel the Youtube link because embedded links do not always work the way they are supposed to. In this case, locating the track would have been virtually impossible.)
I also thought this thread would be a good place to mention Wardell Gray's work with Teddy Charles (Wardell Gray Memorial vol. 1, Prestige). On listening to "Vic Feldman On Vibes" (aka "With Mallets A Fore Thought"), I hit upon a piece named "Evening In Paris" which reminds me of "So Long Broadway" from the Wardell Gray album. Are the similarities "striking"? Well, I didn't really analyze the compositions but in a more general way they are. It's that subtle hint of traffic noise in the horns (avoiding, however, the obvious sound effect) plus the sound of the vibes that makes them very similar. Hard to describe - listen for yourself/-ves.
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Post by sztiv on Feb 27, 2019 16:20:19 GMT
Plagiarism or influenced by?
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Post by gregorythefish on Feb 27, 2019 19:09:15 GMT
the world of jazz is expansive, vast, interconnected, and informal. these similarities don't surprise me at all, and i think it is very difficult to prove malice in these situations. how many tunes sound like the opening motif of another tune, but then go in a different direction? how many bebop tunes are based on another tune's chords? is "the lick" (google it if you don't know) really something anyone can own?
try to hum "cruella d'evil" from 101 Dalmations, the disney film. then try to hum "blue monk". have fun!
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Post by bassman on Aug 1, 2019 16:53:46 GMT
Am I the first one to point to some similarities between "Someday My Prince Will Come" (Frank Churchill 1937) and "I'm A Fool To Want You" (supposedly composed by Frank Sinatra in 1951)? Just saying ...
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Post by Doom Girl on Aug 1, 2019 21:09:11 GMT
From Ashley Kahn’s book “A Love Supreme:”
“This famous “a love supreme” riff is a phrase that is, essentially, a blues building block. A more common element of jazz – of African-American expression in general – does not exist. Because such phrases are an integral part of the music’s grammar, it is not surprising to find at least one antecedent to the “love supreme” figure in the jazz annals.”
“Mau Mau,” a 1953 recording by Art Farmer (co-written by Quincy Jones), falls into a Latin jazz category, and features a section with the same melodic and rhythmic stamp as “Acknowledgement.” Given the eleven-year gap, it’s a safe bet that Coltrane, Farmer, and Jones were simply drawing inspiration from the same deep, blues-filled well many others have visited. Branford Marsalis (says):
“You know Led Zeppelin’s “Whole Lotta Love”? (Sings, shifting rhythm so it sounds like “a love supreme” riff) or Willie Dixon’s song “The Seventh Son” (Sings, does same) That’s the bass line in the first section of “A Love Supreme – it’s just a blues lick.””
I don’t know if this really adds anything beyond the obvious. I’ve listened to the Marsalis examples and don’t hear the “love supreme” riff in them. Maybe you can. For Coltrane, I don’t think it is plagiarism or influence, just coincidence. There are only so many notes out there ☺
I think ‘Someday My Prince Will Come” and “I’m a Fool to Want You” are similar in that they are both pretty songs. Apart from the phrases each having 6 syllables, it seems to me that the intervals between notes and the chord progressions are different. Maybe there are similarities in the bridges – I didn’t get that far – or maybe bassman is just kidding.
“Blue Monk” and “Cruella de Vil" however……
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Post by bassman on Aug 2, 2019 8:50:34 GMT
[ ... ] I think ‘Someday My Prince Will Come” and “I’m a Fool to Want You” are similar in that they are both pretty songs. Apart from the phrases each having 6 syllables, it seems to me that the intervals between notes and the chord progressions are different. [ ... ] In the first two phrases, the intervals between notes are exactly the same, so the melody is the same, except for the very first note. This is because "Fool" is set in a minor key (minor parallel to the key of "Prince", if you will). And that's why the chords, too, are different for the first phrase, but the second phrase is set in very much the same way as "Fool". So the beginning of "Prince", when played in Bb major, would be equivalent to "Fool" played in G minor. The melody (notes, intervals) would be exactly the same. Hardly sufficient for a copyright issue (how many notes am I allowed to steal from a song?), but clearly audible. |
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 2, 2019 10:07:56 GMT
From Ashley Kahn’s book “A Love Supreme:” “This famous “a love supreme” riff is a phrase that is, essentially, a blues building block. A more common element of jazz – of African-American expression in general – does not exist. Because such phrases are an integral part of the music’s grammar, it is not surprising to find at least one antecedent to the “love supreme” figure in the jazz annals.” “Mau Mau,” a 1953 recording by Art Farmer (co-written by Quincy Jones), falls into a Latin jazz category, and features a section with the same melodic and rhythmic stamp as “Acknowledgement.” Given the eleven-year gap, it’s a safe bet that Coltrane, Farmer, and Jones were simply drawing inspiration from the same deep, blues-filled well many others have visited. Branford Marsalis (says): “You know Led Zeppelin’s “Whole Lotta Love”? (Sings, shifting rhythm so it sounds like “a love supreme” riff) or Willie Dixon’s song “The Seventh Son” (Sings, does same) That’s the bass line in the first section of “A Love Supreme – it’s just a blues lick.”” I don’t know if this really adds anything beyond the obvious. I’ve listened to the Marsalis examples and don’t hear the “love supreme” riff in them. Maybe you can. For Coltrane, I don’t think it is plagiarism or influence, just coincidence. There are only so many notes out there ☺ I think ‘Someday My Prince Will Come” and “I’m a Fool to Want You” are similar in that they are both pretty songs. Apart from the phrases each having 6 syllables, it seems to me that the intervals between notes and the chord progressions are different. Maybe there are similarities in the bridges – I didn’t get that far – or maybe bassman is just kidding. “Blue Monk” and “Cruella de Vil" however…… Have a listen to the four notes (the main riff) that Jimmy Page plays and repeats. Then hum or listen to the four base notes that Jimmy Garrison plays. You should be able to hear the similarities. |
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Post by Doom Girl on Aug 2, 2019 15:42:12 GMT
Good explanations Bassman and Jazzhead. Thanks!
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 14, 2019 10:21:26 GMT
Thelonious Monk - Thelonious and J J Johnson - Turnpike
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Post by bassman on Aug 14, 2019 15:04:40 GMT
Thelonious Monk - Thelonious and J J Johnson - Turnpike [ ... ] Amazing! Never thought of it, although I should know both tunes very well. To be precise, I know "Thelonious" from the "Underground" album. It's in better sound, too. |
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Post by jazzhead on Aug 14, 2019 21:50:44 GMT
Thelonious Monk - Thelonious and J J Johnson - Turnpike [ ... ] Amazing! Never thought of it, although I should know both tunes very well. To be precise, I know "Thelonious" from the "Underground" album. It's in better sound, too. I love that album. Raise Four is something else. For anyone that hasn't heard it: |
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