|
|
Post by sztiv on Feb 22, 2017 21:03:15 GMT
Along with a lot of other things, I've just purchased a copy of the Blue Note 2-fer with BLP 1549 Cifford Jordan and John Gilmore on one disc and BLP 1559 Johnny Griffin's Blowin' Session on the other.
Other than being possibly the best £12 I've ever spent, I quickly realised that I can't distinguish between the 3 tenors. Fortunately Lee Morgan isn't causing me the same problems.
Of course it might be that the extensive cover notes will tell me that "on track A Hank comes in first and Johnny second" but that kind of spoils the fun. I want to listen again (and again and again) and try to distinguish between the three musicians based on the differences in how they play.
It goes without saying I guess that I don't really know what to listen out for. I do have a few records by these three gentlemen which will provide some pointers.
I recently acquired Monk's Misterioso (Live at the 5 Spot) which I've seen some people attribute to Griffin because he almost dominates the session. I know he gained a reputation for the speed of his playing. He seems to be a bit of a bruiser to me, prone to running roughshod over everyone else.
Practically all my exposure to Coltrane is from about 1962 with Live! At The Village Vanguard, moving through Coltrane and Ellington, Crescent and ALS to 1966 and Live At The Village Vanguard Again! I'm not sure any of these are going to help me distinguishing his contribution to this 1957 set? Probably I'll give Blue Train a quick spin before I begin.
Mobley is still a bit of a mystery to me but I guess if I can identify the other two musicians then the remaining voice will be his.
It would be easier however if you guys could give me some clues about what to listen out for. How do you tell the difference between Johnny, John and Hank when they're all blowing away like crazy on the same recording date?
|
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Feb 23, 2017 8:02:35 GMT
[ ... ] How do you tell the difference between Johnny, John and Hank when they're all blowing away like crazy on the same recording date? Well - just for a start, Griffin is the one who grunts between phrases, and his phrasing is characterized by long strings of sharp, precise, swinging eighth-notes. Mobley is more of a "noodler", albeit on a very high artistic and technical level. And Trane? Most difficult to say in a few words, but I think there's often an underlying feeling of long (semibreve) triplets in his playing, and he often starts phrases with, well, "grace notes" would be the wrong term because what I mean is this hard attack on the first beat, starting on a lower note. But then again, I may be very wrong about all this ... |
|
|
|
Post by alunsevern on Feb 23, 2017 14:08:39 GMT
Damn -- I've just written an extensive, insightful comment and then -- like a klutz -- lost it. So much for insight. That shows what happens when I try and multi-task -- i.e. work *and* hang out on forums...
Anyway, what I *think* I said was that during the brief period in which I owned a copy of this record I don't think I ever could tell them apart and probably never tried... The simple reason being that I felt it exemplified all the shortcomings of those kind of 'blowing dates'. Too much of everything -- too much sax, too much drums, solos too long, too little listening to each other.
Sadly I think Griffin rather prone to those faults even on a good day. Even the 5 Spot session with Monk isn't entirely free of his tendency to dominate the proceedings simply by virtue of keeping playing. Sorry I can't help more. I just listened to THE WAY (I think the track is called)on YT, thinking I would easily pick out the three. But I couldn't. I felt certain that Griffin was first up; then Mobley... But if there was then a transition from Mobley to Coltrane, I couldn't spot it. But by then my ears had given up, I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by gregorythefish on Feb 23, 2017 16:55:41 GMT
I would say Trane shouldn't be too hard to distinguish. He has the hard, harsh tone that the others lack. Mobley plays with a more malty tone, reserved and such, and in my experience Griffin plays even more malty than Mobley. There's my 2 cents.
|
|
Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99 
|
Post by Evan on Feb 24, 2017 0:42:58 GMT
I love this question. A Blowing Session and Tenor Conclave were among the first jazz records I ever bought, and I had no idea who among the tenor players was doing what. I can't say I've listened to Conclave much but Blowing Session was a favourite for a long time, especially that blistering interpretation of The Way You Look Tonight. Over time I got to know all three more, but still I would have to identify Coltrane and Griffin first as they, to me, are much more distinctive, having more extreme aspects to their playing (Trane harsher, Griffin much faster) than Mobley's more middle-of-the-road style (not a criticism).
Blowing Session was also the first jazz record to make me wonder how older people at the time felt about these new takes of popular songs, especially the faster ones. Were they something like the disco remixes or trance remixes of that era? I can't help but feel those who grew up with the original version of The Way You Look Tonight would have turned their noses up at the version on this LP, released 20 years later.
Has anyone read anything about reactions to these covers? Was there ever a racial aspect to it, given that a large majority were being recorded by young, black musicians?
|
|
Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
|
Post by Evan on Feb 24, 2017 0:51:37 GMT
[ ... ] How do you tell the difference between Johnny, John and Hank when they're all blowing away like crazy on the same recording date? [...] long strings of sharp, precise, swinging eighth-notes. [...] long (semibreve) triplets Bassman, could you please explain these more? Referring me to specific parts of tracks would be a great help too. Assume I know nothing! (It would be true.) |
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Feb 24, 2017 9:25:38 GMT
[...] long strings of sharp, precise, swinging eighth-notes. [...] long (semibreve) triplets Bassman, could you please explain these more? Referring me to specific parts of tracks would be a great help too. Assume I know nothing! (It would be true.) Hi Evan. "Trane harsher, Griffin much faster"... Strictly speaking, Trane's eighth-notes are just as fast as Griffin's (how could it be otherwise?), but it's Griffin who creates this impression of machine-tooled precision because he is able to play a succession of eighth-notes (even sixteenth-notes) right on the beat at high speed for a considerable time, without having to resort to any kind of "relief" syncopation that would allow him to play fewer notes in a given time. I wonder how many sax players have been able to do this. (The ones that spring to mind are people like Sal Nistico, Phil Woods ...) But don't get me wrong about "machine-tooled": Griffin is "both fast and funky" (Ira Gitler, liner notes). I must confess that what I said about Trane applies less to his fast numbers than it does to the typical quartet sessions with McCoy Tyner. If you take two beats (one minim, not semibreve, as it were - sorry!) and divide them by three, you get this kind of underlying triplet feeling that I think I'm hearing in Trane's medium-tempo tracks. So "Blowin' Session" would not be a good example. Still, take "All The Things You Are": Coltrane enters after Griffin at 3:19, and there you have that triplet somewhere around 3:24 ! But, as I stated above, I may be very wrong about all this. |
|
|
|
Post by sztiv on Feb 25, 2017 13:57:24 GMT
Thank you everyone for your advice with this.
I'll let you know how I get on when I return to this record and have a proper chance to listen to it without the interruptions that come with living in a tiny bungalow with 2 large dogs and a 3 year old.
|
|
Evan
Junior Member
Posts: 99
|
Post by Evan on Feb 27, 2017 5:54:53 GMT
Bassman, could you please explain these more? Referring me to specific parts of tracks would be a great help too. Assume I know nothing! (It would be true.) Hi Evan. "Trane harsher, Griffin much faster"... Strictly speaking, Trane's eighth-notes are just as fast as Griffin's (how could it be otherwise?), but it's Griffin who creates this impression of machine-tooled precision because he is able to play a succession of eighth-notes (even sixteenth-notes) right on the beat at high speed for a considerable time, without having to resort to any kind of "relief" syncopation that would allow him to play fewer notes in a given time. I wonder how many sax players have been able to do this. (The ones that spring to mind are people like Sal Nistico, Phil Woods ...) But don't get me wrong about "machine-tooled": Griffin is "both fast and funky" (Ira Gitler, liner notes). I must confess that what I said about Trane applies less to his fast numbers than it does to the typical quartet sessions with McCoy Tyner. If you take two beats (one minim, not semibreve, as it were - sorry!) and divide them by three, you get this kind of underlying triplet feeling that I think I'm hearing in Trane's medium-tempo tracks. So "Blowin' Session" would not be a good example. Still, take "All The Things You Are": Coltrane enters after Griffin at 3:19, and there you have that triplet somewhere around 3:24 ! But, as I stated above, I may be very wrong about all this. Thanks for that! I find a lot of the technical vocabulary of jazz quite difficult. I've never studied music, and any attempt to look up a term usually just leads to more mysterious terms... nice to have them explained from time to time by someone who knows what they're on about. Much appreciated. |
|
|
|
Post by gregorythefish on Feb 28, 2017 22:55:15 GMT
i am fortunate in that i have a small musical background, but most musical vocabulary is just a fancy term for something you already know and understand. i wouldn't worry.
|
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Mar 1, 2017 8:01:45 GMT
i am fortunate in that i have a small musical background, but most musical vocabulary is just a fancy term for something you already know and understand. i wouldn't worry. Quite so, Gregory. In a way, music is like language. You don't have to know grammar in order to be able to speak. You don't even have to know any spelling rules to write correctly, if you just absorb the rules while reading. That's what most people do, more or less successfully. But anyone who wants to know more about language/music will have to use some kind of terminology - just to be sure what it is you are talking about. In fact, you can be one of the greatest jazz piano players in history without being able to read music, provided your first name is Erroll and you are a musical genius. (But the trouble starts when you try to write a cool arrangement for four horns and rhythm ...) |
|
|
|
Post by sztiv on Mar 1, 2017 23:01:34 GMT
Well I plonked this back on the turntable tonight and gave it another spin.
Try as I might I couldn't hear anyone grunting but actually I think I probably can differentiate between these three tenors.
I would prefer to say that Mobley is the more restrained of the three rather than MOR. Griffin and Coltrane are slightly closer in style but Griffin does play bloody fast and quite belligerently whilst Coltrane is the most self assured and seems to play between the notes which I'm sure isn't a technically accurate description of what he's doing but it kind of makes sense to me.
As for the music itself well it doesn't really go anywhere. It doesn't have a beginning, a middle or an end but for £6 I'm not complaining.
Thanks for the new addition to my yiddish vocabulary Alun. I'm a goy who runs a Jewish food business so I need to know my klutz from my mensch.
|
|
|
|
Post by bassman on Mar 2, 2017 8:22:58 GMT
Well I plonked this back on the turntable tonight and gave it another spin. Try as I might I couldn't hear anyone grunting but actually I think I probably can differentiate between these three tenors. [ ... ] OK, here you are, Sztiv: "The Way You Look Tonight", first grunt at 1:40,5! In live recordings, these noises are easily mistaken for audience response, but they aren't. They are omnipresent in Griffin's recorded solos, just take "Rhythm-a-ning" from "Thelonious In Action" (Riverside). |
|
|
|
Post by alunsevern on Mar 2, 2017 19:16:18 GMT
Yes, I definitely hear Griffin grunting -- or, let's be polite: exhaling emphatically -- on THE WAY. Another emphatic exhaler is Jackie McLean. He grunts almost as much as he blows! Sztiv, I would have been delighted to add to your yiddish vocabulary -- were I able to -- but I don't think I did... Who did? Come on, don't schlep around -- own up  |
|
|
|
Post by sztiv on Mar 6, 2017 12:04:53 GMT
You're kidding me? That's Griffin? I assumed it was Kelly, Chambers or Blakey (or at least someone without an instrument in their mouth) giving general encouragement or just voicing enthusiasm. As for the example from the Thelonious in Action, I've listened to it on YouTube and again I hear the same sound. So I guess it can't be Kelly, Chambers or Blakey. Interestingly the AllMusic reviewer wrote: "The intensity of "Rhythm-A-Ning" lifts the whole combo after quickly developing the chorus. Griffin builds line upon melodic line, after which Monk responds in kind by adding distinct punctuations of his own. So powerful is Griffin's onslaught, Monk can be heard indicating more than once that Griffin should indulge in another verse." So it would seem that they also mistook his noises for someone else. Great recording. Thanks. |
|
