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Post by Martin on Jun 28, 2016 11:39:10 GMT
I don't know about you, but I sometimes find the wide array of possible records to collect a daunting prospect. My remedy to this is to break things down into manageable subsets so that I can focus on achievable aims. I usually have several of these subsets in mind at the same time and I'm nearing completion of one such subset - the four Miles Davis Quintet LPs Cookin'/Relaxin'/Workin'/Steamin'. This means I'm starting to muse over what I might start looking for next and one possibility are the Clifford Brown/Max Roach LPs on Emarcy. However, that raises some questions that you guys might be able to help with... The first question is should I simply short-circuit the whole issue and go for the Mosaic box set? That has definite attractions - Mosaic still have some in stock as far as I can tell, the Mosaic 180g pressings are excellent in my experience, they'd be new mint records and you get that whole Mosaic package with the booklet etc. Even so, owning originals still exerts a strong pull which leads me to questions about the original questions (not in any special order, so apologies for the brain dump): 1). I've ready that some early Emarcy pressings were on styrene rather than vinyl (like the Transition records). I'm not a fan of styrene pressings so I'd like to be sure that the Brown/Roach records were actually on vinyl. 2). Labels - I initially thought it was going to be easy to identify the correct labels for first pressings - all silver/blue drummer labels, right? Uh-oh, my limited research to date tells me that there are variations to watch out for - big drummer, small drummer, with or without silver rim and wording differences below the drummer like "Margin Control" versus "A High Fidelity Recording". Plus I've even seen a Bob Djukic eBay auction where he claims the first pressing on one Brown/Roach record should have black labels. 3). Covers - apparently printing in blue ink or black ink on rear covers is also an indicator of being a first pressing or otherwise. I've come across this interesting resource: microgroove.jp/mercury/EmArcy.shtmlBut I could so with some additional corroboration for the following LPs: a). 10-inch LP MG-26043: Clifford Brown and Max Roach - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG26043.shtmlb). 12-inch LP MG-36008: Brown And Roach Incorporated - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36008.shtmlc). 12-inch LP MG-36036: Clifford Brown and Max Roach - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36036.shtmld). 12-inch LP MG-36037: Study In Brown - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36037.shtmle). 12-inch LP MG-36070: At Basin Street - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36070.shtmlSo if anybody can shed light on the matter, that would be great. |
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Post by dottorjazz on Jun 28, 2016 15:51:44 GMT
the Mercury site is very interesting.
I confess I tried several times to understand which are the original issues but still I miss the answer.
too lazy?
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Post by gregorythefish on Jun 28, 2016 22:20:49 GMT
as a rule, anything bob says is bullshit (so that he can sell his records for idiotic prices) or true but only by coincidence. he is, in my opinion, a swindler of the highest order when it comes to about half of his auctions.
i know nothing about the originals you seek, but discogs can be a good repository, and messaging lots of sellers to get more info is always good, even if (unbeknownst to them) you might have no intention of buying the you ask about.
what attracted me is your discussion of subsets for collecting. i am <30 records away from the complete 1st pressings on impulse. all 350+ of them. even greatest hits and radio promos. i only need 5 on the orange label, and one on the black label with red rim.
similarly, i have begun to try harder in my quests to complete MODE and BLACK JAZZ. we'll see how i do. i also long for all the horace silver 12'' records on blue note. i am missing the first two (which are represses of 10'') and also cape verdaen and jody grind. i have originals of all the others.
subsets of collecting are a wonderful thing. but alas, after these conquests, i do not know what else i will look for beyond just anything GOOD. perhaps candid, but so much blues (not my bag) and crap (crappy) on candid. blue note, prestige, riverside? too rare and too expensive. maybe New Jazz? also rare, but maybe manageable.
might focus more on my favorite artists.
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Post by Martin on Jun 29, 2016 11:43:54 GMT
It depends on your tastes, GTF, but allow me to suggest some potentially affordable subsets:
1). The Cannonball Adderley Quintet/Sextet on Riverside.
2). The second great Miles Davis Quintet on Columbia two-eye labels.
3). The Benny Golson/Art Farmer Jazztet on Argo.
4). Liberty-era Blue Note - you could focus on late releases by specific artists.
I don't know if that sparks any ideas for you?
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Post by gregorythefish on Jun 29, 2016 19:00:49 GMT
the jazztet (and byrd/gryce jazz lab) are worthy ideas, across all labels, perhaps. i might do that. black jazz will be a bit of a project, and i've just purchased a ring (yes, THAT kind) for a special someone, so i should cool it for awhile, or at least try to.
also, it has been four solid months since i have purchased a single recording on MODE. i am still missing roughly 1/3 of the label, and it shouldn't be this hard! what gives!? harumph!
but yes, your suggestions are good ones. the liberty-era horace silver records are mostly excellent, so i like that idea, too. perhaps lee morgan?
since MERCURY was brought up, i just realized for the first time the other day that "Emarcy", when pronounced, is literally M-R-C: Mercury Record Corporation. weird!
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Post by gst on Jun 30, 2016 13:29:35 GMT
Congrats Greg!
As far as what's original I'm not sure, but a quick look through Popsike, Discogs and eBay seems to point that the little drummer with the without the silver ring is the original (at least for the 12" version of Clifford Brown and Max Roach).
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Fredrik
Junior Member
fwrarejazzvinylcollector.com
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Post by Fredrik on Jun 30, 2016 18:28:22 GMT
It should have the silver rim and blue back to be a 1st pressing.
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Post by gst on Jun 30, 2016 19:42:56 GMT
It should have the silver rim and blue back to be a 1st pressing. Thanks Fredrik. Do you happen to have any pics of an original? |
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Post by Martin on Jun 30, 2016 21:41:50 GMT
My congratulations too Greg. Yes, there are some very nice Liberty era Lee Morgan Blue's Notes. The Gigolo and Sixth Sense spring to mind. Also Hank Mobley's records like Dippin' and Hi Voltage as well as several Bobby Hutchersons, McCoy Tyners and so on.
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Fredrik
Junior Member
fwrarejazzvinylcollector.com
Posts: 61
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Post by Fredrik on Jun 30, 2016 23:47:08 GMT
Yeah gst, follow the link Martin added above: microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36036.shtmlI don't have it myself. Don't have any of the Brown/Roach LP's, but I will add them to the collection sooner or later. Study in Brown is probably first on the want list. |
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Post by gst on Jul 1, 2016 1:47:34 GMT
Yeah gst, follow the link Martin added above: microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36036.shtmlI don't have it myself. Don't have any of the Brown/Roach LP's, but I will add them to the collection sooner or later. Study in Brown is probably first on the want list. Ah I see it now. Thanks. |
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Post by bopmodalfree on Jul 4, 2016 23:45:22 GMT
Hi Martin,
I think the Roach-Brown quintet stuff is fantastic. I really love how Brown and Land sound together on Study in Brown, so this is the one I went for. I learned about this music in general from owning the EmArcy 10-CD box set from back in the 90s. Because I didn't feel like spending $100 on an original, and because I really enjoy a lot of the Blue Note reissues in terms of sound, I thought that maybe I could get a reissue for a lot cheaper. I did, but it was probably a mistake in this case. The Study In Brown I have has a blue label with "Mercury" inside an oval, but no drummer. I'm guessing this is a 60's pressing. Unfortunately, my copy has pretty bad groove distortion, but because I have a mono cartridge I thought I could live with this (for the semi-reasonable price, and the cover looks great). True, the distortion is much improved with the mono cart, and so in one respect this is listenable.
However, what I really DON'T like about this pressing is that on side 1, the 3rd and 4th tracks come in at much lower volume, and that needs to be cranked. I just find this really annoying. My deadwax has the following:
side 1: MG 36037A MS2
side 2: MG 36037B MS3
My advice is to stay away from this pressing. If I ever have the chance, I would consider an earlier pressing with the original deadwax matrix #. I thought seriously about the Mosaic set, but because I have the CD set, I just couldn't pull the trigger (came close!). Hope this helps, and I'd be curious if anyone can comment further on this pressing I have.
-Drew
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Post by Martin on Jul 5, 2016 6:43:41 GMT
Hi Drew,
Thank you taking the time to share your experiences. Yes, I think that the Mercury blue label pressing dates from the 1960s. Having discussed the original pressings with other contacts offline, I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the best two options are either the Mosaic set of waiting for NM copies of the first pressings to come up. Such things do happen, though patience will be needed. There's a naughty little devil whispering in my ear that I could have the Mosaic set now and the originals later...
All the best,
Martin
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Post by gregorythefish on Jul 5, 2016 14:15:28 GMT
Thanks, guys! It'll be a bit before I do anything with it, but excitement builds!
Martin, I have gotten the sense recently that Mobley records have a 'dipped in gold' aura surrounding them thanks to the desirability of 1568. I recently bought an original of "The Turnaround" and thought I had overpaid just a bit, until I got home and looked on popsike. Turns out I got a great deal! But yes, I would buy any Mobley BNs I could. That's the sort of thing that could turn into a collection if I got enough of them, but I don't want to tear my hair out worrying about it. I would love to collect the Strata-East catalog, for example, but two or three records on that label sell well into the $1000 bin, and I am not about to go there. (M'boom, Mike & Phoebe, etc.)
I own but one Emarcy proper (ie, no Mercury relation listed) and it is a fairly torched copy of "In the Land of Hi-Fi" by Cannonball. It was 50 cents. I had to try. So this is good information for me to know.
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Post by Rich on Jul 7, 2016 6:10:05 GMT
I don't know about you, but I sometimes find the wide array of possible records to collect a daunting prospect. My remedy to this is to break things down into manageable subsets so that I can focus on achievable aims. I usually have several of these subsets in mind at the same time and I'm nearing completion of one such subset - the four Miles Davis Quintet LPs Cookin'/Relaxin'/Workin'/Steamin'. This means I'm starting to muse over what I might start looking for next and one possibility are the Clifford Brown/Max Roach LPs on Emarcy. However, that raises some questions that you guys might be able to help with... The first question is should I simply short-circuit the whole issue and go for the Mosaic box set? That has definite attractions - Mosaic still have some in stock as far as I can tell, the Mosaic 180g pressings are excellent in my experience, they'd be new mint records and you get that whole Mosaic package with the booklet etc. Even so, owning originals still exerts a strong pull which leads me to questions about the original questions (not in any special order, so apologies for the brain dump): 1). I've ready that some early Emarcy pressings were on styrene rather than vinyl (like the Transition records). I'm not a fan of styrene pressings so I'd like to be sure that the Brown/Roach records were actually on vinyl. 2). Labels - I initially thought it was going to be easy to identify the correct labels for first pressings - all silver/blue drummer labels, right? Uh-oh, my limited research to date tells me that there are variations to watch out for - big drummer, small drummer, with or without silver rim and wording differences below the drummer like "Margin Control" versus "A High Fidelity Recording". Plus I've even seen a Bob Djukic eBay auction where he claims the first pressing on one Brown/Roach record should have black labels. 3). Covers - apparently printing in blue ink or black ink on rear covers is also an indicator of being a first pressing or otherwise. I've come across this interesting resource: microgroove.jp/mercury/EmArcy.shtmlBut I could so with some additional corroboration for the following LPs: a). 10-inch LP MG-26043: Clifford Brown and Max Roach - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG26043.shtmlb). 12-inch LP MG-36008: Brown And Roach Incorporated - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36008.shtmlc). 12-inch LP MG-36036: Clifford Brown and Max Roach - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36036.shtmld). 12-inch LP MG-36037: Study In Brown - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36037.shtmle). 12-inch LP MG-36070: At Basin Street - see also microgroove.jp/mercury/MG36070.shtmlSo if anybody can shed light on the matter, that would be great. I haven't gotten as deep into it as you. All I know is the blue label with the drummer is original, and the blue back for Brown and Roach Inc. and Study in Brown are original. I don't know what black label Djukic is referring to, can you provide a link? I had an original of Study in Brown when I first started collecting and I didn't think the sound quality justified what I paid for it. The mastering level was kind of low and it was allowing for pops and ticks to cut through the music a little. i ended up returning it. I wouldn't try for an original again unless I could afford a NM copy. I also don't know about the Mosaic set, but it looks like it has everything EmArcy put out. The very first album never grabbed me, I like the Basin Street, I like Brown and Roach Inc. a little more, but I absolutely love Study in Brown. |
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